I read an article sent to me by Sher Buckner from the Humane Society Website by writer Charles Bergman. Who is Charles Bergman? I had no idea so I Googled him. According to Charles Bergman, Charles Bergman is:
….a writer, photographer and speaker who lives today in the beautiful Pacific Northwest. He’s twice been a Fulbright Scholar in Latin America–Mexico and Ecuador–and traveled extensively in Latin America from Mexico to Tierra del Fuego. He has recently had cover stories in Smithsonian magazine (wildlife trafficking), Audubon magazine (roses), Defenders magazine (parrot trafficking in Mexico). His photographs accompany his articles. He has written three books, and has won the Washington State Book Award, Southwest Book Award, and the Benjamin Franklin Book Award. He was a finalist for the PEN USA Literary Award.
Titled, No-Fly Zone: Denied Their Natural Habits, Millions of Pet Parrots Lead Bleak, Lonely Lives, it essentially stated that cockatoos don’t belong in homes, that every domestically raised bird is traumatized and that we are overrun with parrots. Well!
Author Mira Tweti was quoted as saying: “For an animal as emotionally complex as a chimpanzee or dolphin, it amounts to an unimaginably bleak existence.” Berman goes on to write, ” In fact, parrot advocate Mira Tweti estimates that some 75 percent of birds “live a life of abuse or neglect.’”
Perhaps they do. I don’t know where these numbers and estimates come from that says all of these parrots lead bleak, lonely lives.
But not in my home. Or She Buckner’s. Or Irena Schulz’s, Kelly Moore and Anthony Parsley’s, Bonnie Grafton’s, Rebecca Stockslager’s, Elle Michelle’s, Janet Holt Hilton’s, Lynn’s, Silvia’s, Noelle’s, or hundreds and thousands of other homes around the world. Yes, I realize we are the exception rather than the rule.
And yes, we have a problem. I believe there are more birds than we have homes for.
And it is my opinion that cockatoos are one hell of a challenge for your average person. Even your above average person. Hell, I think that they would be a challenge for St. Francis of Assisi. “Saint and Lover of All Animals.” Perhaps. But I’d make book that he’d run in the other direction the minute he got a cockatoo.
I’m a Grey person. I know enough to stay out of the cockatoo arena because they would drive me bat-shit crazy in a day or two. And as far as I’m concerned, you Cockatoo people have the patience of a saint and nerves of steel. I don’t know how you do it, and I could never pretend to even begin thinking about adopting one. I nearly lost it with a Quaker in the house. I’ve got three Greys. I’m good.
Photo of Snooky by Shari Mirojnick
But I digress.
It goes on to state that “We’re experiencing a hidden crisis of parrot ownership.” I don’t quite know what that means. What part is hidden? Foster Parrots is pretty up front about the situation. Founder Marc Johnson has always been a very vocal advocate of parrots and quite up front about his opinion regarding the continuation of breeding. Anne Brooks of Phoenix Landing is very clear about the growing need for homes as is Florida Parrot Rescue. At this point, all FPR is asking for are foster homes. They need some homes, like, NOW! Where’s the “Hidden” part?
Illustration by Robert Seymour, courtesy FPR
Then, here come the numbers in the article: “For example, while a 2012 survey by the American Veterinary Medical Association found about 8.3 million birds in 3.7 million homes, a 2010 survey by the American Pet Products Association found nearly twice that number: 16.2 million birds in 5.7 million U.S. homes.”
Okay, I don’t know which is right but it doesn’t matter. Let’s just take it on face value that they are correct Pick a statistic, the powers that be can’t even agree on them.
Reading the article in question begs a question: Okay, so you don’t think we do very well by our birds. We get that. Now, what would you like us to do with them? Two of mine are relinquishments.
It makes a lot of statements. But this article was put out by the Humane Society!
Got any solutions there for us, HSUS? Little help here?
The HSUS is for the most part an advocacy group now, working on lobbying and getting laws passed. But as far as I know, they have stepped out of the “direct rescue” of animals. On their website, they state, “We are the nation’s most important advocate for local humane societies, providing shelter standards and evaluations, training programs, a national advertising campaign to promote pet adoption, direct support, and national conferences.”
According to Charity Navigator, the HSUS pays out zero dollars to their affiliates. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Nothing. Here are the numbers:
A bulk of this collected works here at the “Nation,” devotes itself to attempting to appeal to the humanity of people. I been trying to get people to work through the issues of having birds in their houses. I want the birds we have to remain where they are for as long as possible.
We get it. It’s not an ideal life. But then, none of life is, wild or captive.
Mark Bittner spoke a couple of years ago at the Midwest Bird Expo. When he told the audience that none of the original flock was still alive, you felt a freeze in the audience. People were upset. What? Why? Why are they all gone?
Well, because they were wild. Some died of disease, infection, predator attack, whatever. That’s what happens in the wild. Living wild has its issues. And these are just some of the reasons wild animals don’t live as long as we would like to think.
It’s not pretty out there. It’s wild!
Animals die. They get consumed by other animals. They get hit by cars, they die of disease, or God knows what else. That’s the beast of nature. So many people think its all these pretty parrots out there flitting about from branch to branch finding plenty to eat and playing in the trees like a scene from Snow White. That is a fairy tale.
Just watching the film, Anne of a Thousand Days about Anne Bolyn which took place during the Tudor period from 1485 to 1603 makes me cringe. Infection, venereal disease, pneumonia, death in childbirth. Life expectancy at that time was thirty-five years. Gaaaaahhh! Something as simple as a scratch on your knee and you might lose a leg. Or just die from the resulting infection, tetanus or lockjaw. And these were people who were the upper crust. Just five hundred years ago people were dying young and sometimes horribly with no antibiotics or simple medical knowledge.
So what makes people think its better out there in the wild for a flock of parrots?
Look, I’m not defending the asshats who fail to take care of their birds, just like I can’t stand the idea of kids having kids at 15 or 16.
I think we are overrun with people and I take off my scarf to couples who choose not to have kids. Or they just stick to one. I think the Dugger Family is not only crazy, they are irresponsible.
There’s far too many people in the world, let alone parrots.
Unfortunately there’s far too few people to take care of the far too many parrots. So what do we do? I don’t know. I know that what I’m trying to do is make people feel better about the birds they already have. I want people to keep them. To take better care of them. I’m trying to make it easier for the families who already have birds.
I can’t do a whole lot about the thousands of parrots that are displaced. I am one person. And making me feel bad about the situation almost makes me want to give up rather than work harder. And I really don’t think that’s what the intention of the article was, but that was the effect it had on me. Which really doesn’t help anything.
But if not us, who? If not here, where? Where are they going to go and who is going to take care of them?
While I agree with much of what was said, I found the overall tone of it discouraging and upsetting. And if writer Charles Bergman wanted to stir the pot, he did so effectively. But the tone and the bleak, take no prisoners approach was probably enough to make some people do what I do when I see the HSUS commercials on TV: I change the channel.
Patricia Sund
Parrot Nation 
March 27, 2013 at 7:42 am
I learned of the dishonesty and visual play on emotions to lure people to fork out money that doesn’t go toward animals too. I also turn the channel. It sickens me that such campaigns are out there giving the wrong message and people are being manipulated to hand over money that won’t go toward helping the animals that were used as models to draw the public in…
Great post Patricia!
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March 27, 2013 at 7:49 am
With all respect Patricia, “So what makes people think its better out there in the wild for a flock of parrots?” – that is where they belong. What makes people think that? I know that. I’m surrounded by it. And no, it’s not a fairy tale. It’s real. I’m very surprised to read this sentiment that parrots in the wild are no better off than their deprived captive cousins. Even those in places where there’s pressure on their survival are, until the moment anything happens to them or they die naturally, free, happy, able to make their own decisions each and every second of their life and most of all, in the place they belong and have lived for millions and millions of years, just like every other wild animal out there. Thousands of wildebeest are killed by lions on their first day of life, are they better off in our homes so we can protect them? Of course not.
The “big bad wild” is real. The problem is humans being totally disconnected from it.
Human houses, cages, aviaries, shelters. No, parrots don’t belong there. Patricia, maybe you need to see this “fairy tale” yourself some time and perhaps you will rethink this idea, because I find it an immensely damaging and anthropomorphic one. If we could ask the parrots where they’d rather be, I know what their answer would be.
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March 27, 2013 at 7:59 am
Yes, that’s where parrots belong, Rebecca. I agree with you. What I’m trying to say is that people need to understand that the wild is indeed “wild.” I’m trying to get people to look at reality. It’s rough all over. I’m simply illustrating that the life of these birds in the wild is not a Disney Movie. They work hard for every mouthful of food that they get. And it is indeed a tough life. I’m pretty sure most parrots would prefer life and freedom in the wild. I’m simply making the point that it isn’t an ideal life, wild or captive. And I stated it exactly that way.
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March 27, 2013 at 11:24 am
Rebecca, you have very valid points, however, the parrots who are in peoples homes would likely not survive at all if they were released. And I would venture to say that if you asked Parker, Pepper or Nyla where they wanted to be, their answer would be “ON MOMMY’S SHOULDER”
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March 28, 2013 at 10:53 pm
BUT…. it is unfair to compare a “feral” flock in a non native environment where they had no immunity to naturally occurring viruses in that environment. Parrots in their NATURAL environments are evolved to live in that environment and they TRULY do live an idilic life. Unafraid of predators they play in the branches of dead trees without cover of foliage. They know how to avoid predators and where to find food in great abundance. It is only when humans inject themselves into the lives of any wild animal that the suffering starts. Go to Guyana and see them up the Rewa river, away from humans, away from pet trade hunters…. there… they thrive and live the way they should. Attempting to justify their captivity through this spurious “reasoning” does make us feel a little better but how long can we fool ourselves before our conscience catches up to us….
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March 28, 2013 at 11:32 pm
Marc, you think for a moment that parrots are unafraid of predators? Excuse me? Even macaws don’t land on the lick if anything is perceived to be a predator. We have to sit far away or in blinds for their natural behavior to occur. When I was in Peru there was a large bird of prey near the lick and not one parrot, even the macaw, landed. So, they do not have to worry about predators? Really? Chicks are eaten even by monkeys along with their eggs. Then there is very rough competition between conspecifics for nest sites because we humans cannot control ourselves and continue to take and burden what is not ours. Oh, and humans will find them. There is no where to hide out there. No where. And when there is not enough agricultural food to feed them, starving people eat anything. We must control our population if we are to even remotely think everything is just fine for a parrot in it’s natural environments. Look at a recent posting by the Macaw project showing the “chicos’ aging” at 24 years. They are BEAT UP during the nesting season. Never presume bliss when it comes to nature. It’s hard, despite millions of years of adaptation for the order. Perhaps it our turn to save them and send them loose in neighborhoods since everything there is displaced there already especially by us. Why not? Who knows what the end-solution may be but I’ll tell you from only a mere 10 days experience that every completely wild parrot out there is quite wary of a human approaching. The chicos are an entirely different matter in that they imprinted on people and are “humanized”.
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March 28, 2013 at 11:19 pm
This is mostly a resonse to praise Marc Johnson who I’m pleased added his voice here with such a common sense and logical response spoken from experience and not from having an agenda. Patricia, wild is the ideal life. Just like it’s the ideal life for eagles and crows and finches and elephants and tigers and, well you get the picture.
Chuck – your comparison of parrots to dogs tells me you think very little. As for “no wild left”. Please step out of your little bubble and go see the world.
Finally, Patricia, I struggle with what to say about this statement of yours.
“So many people think its all these pretty parrots out there flitting about from branch to branch finding plenty to eat and playing in the trees like a scene from Snow White. That is a fairy tale.”
I’m sorry, but that’s exactly how it is. And it ain’t no fairytale.
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March 28, 2013 at 11:53 pm
The wild is what naturally occurs for them. I’ll give you that and no more. Ideal for them? That is dependent on many factors nearly all of which are subjective and skewed from a human perception. Parrots have died of heat stroke out there. In the middle of the day, they are panting under trees that are shady but they do not move or very little. They are active in the early morning and active in the later afternoon when the sun is less active. They get to eat, sure. The competition for nest sites is currently unnatural. The competition for food resources the same.
The Order (psittaciformes) has been around for several million years longer than us, yes, but we have devastated them far beyond what they are capable of coping with if we “just leave them alone in the wild”. That is what this article written by Charles Bergman suggests for us to do. To allow us to falter in our path to change the world of parrots by educating others about what we are doing to our own planet. Even National Geographic is often plagued by the awful visions of what is going on out there and just cannot seem to open people’s eyes despite the imagery. NIMBY. It will worsen more and more as less and less of us care. Why care about something at all when your parents already don’t care?
I have used parrots as therapy for ADHD, FAS, Autism, Paraplegics, the blind and each one of these individuals have had a significant life-changing ability because of a parrot. Parrots grant us the most unique perspective that no other animal can compare. None. Anywhere of any other order. Parrots are intelligent like us and it is scientifically proven. Parrots live a long life like us and it is scientifically proven. Parrots can imitate our language vocally, others cannot. Parrots don’t seem to age like us, we need to learn. Parrots see in color better than us, how? We need to learn. We know little to nothing of what they really need out there and most of the information we have since they are hard to follow in the wild comes from the captive rearing of parrots.
So, now, we are just to say, ok, no more parrots. People and pet parrots are nothing less than shameful. That we ought to put everyone out of the business of parrots. Yet parrots can be next to that damn computer reminding us every moment of every day that they ARE NOT DOMESTICATED. THEY ARE ALSO NOT WILD. THEY ARE HUMANIZED AND NEED US TO LEARN FROM THEM. Lead by their example. How sad that you would narrow your vision. Look at Rio, the movie. Truly, a wild parrot feels just like Jewel, stay away! A humanized parrot behaves just like Blu who trusted everyone until he learned otherwise.
We will never know welfare-wise what is ideal for a parrot. Sure, they fly in the wild but nowhere near as far as hawks, eagles, finches, etc. They are ranging animals with a heavy head. They don’t migrate, except for one species and that is from New Zealand to Australia and back. Yet another species in the order is completely flightless. The parrot nomenclature comes from the fact they are aboreal climbers not expert flyers. They prefer to climb, socialize and touch above many other things. In fact, I think touching may well be more important to them than flying over time. It still has to be proven yet. In the wild, they MUST fly, they have no CHOICE. If they don’t, they die. Sometimes, if they do, they die. Is that ideal? Or a parrot that is lavished on, gets mentally stimulated, does not pluck and thrives with the family they live with living far longer than their wild counterparts? That was bought from a breeder who educated them who then became the person writing this?
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March 29, 2013 at 9:03 am
But Patricia, your way of thinking would lead every parent to keep their child in the house, 24/7 for fear of the realities of life. Yes life can be hard but does that mean that captivity is better? It is simply a justification we use to make ourselves feel better. Also, there are degrees of difficulty… humans in Sudan are living in the wild and they have a tough life while we also live in the wild, our artificially created wild which, if you ask the homeless guy on the street, also thinks is pretty tough…
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March 29, 2013 at 9:48 am
Marc, I never said life in captivity was better. I just said that life in the wild is what it is. It’s wild. It isn’t Disney World. At least I don’t think so. Poachers, wild animals stealing eggs from nests, picking off babies. I don’t think captivity is better. But these are prey animals. That’s all I was saying.
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March 29, 2013 at 9:53 am
Parrots are NOT afraid of predators. They may be wary but they do not fear them. They have evolved the ability to recognize threats, communicate those threats to the rest of the animals within earshot and to evade predators! I do not fear sharks but I do know when to stay out of the water!
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March 29, 2013 at 1:40 pm
“Parrots are NOT afraid of predators. They may be wary but they do not fear them.”
EXCUSE ME? Sorry for the caps, but not afraid of predators? Wild parrots, as soon as you look up at them when we were close to them, took off. Wary is the same thing as FEAR as far as LABELING goes. All we can do is observe their BEHAVIOR. Their behavior states that if a human walks near them and stops to look at them with nothing else (no hand movement, tools, equipment, etc and they are not humanized chicos), they fly off! Without hesitation. If there is a large bird of prey on the lick, don’t land. If there is a snake try to each chicks, sometimes they let the chicks get eaten so they themselves can produce another clutch.
Don’t get me wrong. To see a parrot doing it’s natural thing is the most intense, miraculous, spiritual, amazing and any other awesome label that I cannot find in our language awesome. I sometimes feel guilty about them not flying around like that. But I also know a few extra things about them. That when they are humanized in any form for any amount of time where they begin to lose their need to be wary of humans, they don’t fly as far and climb more and go to higher food resources, us. That when I give a parrot that lives with us full capacity for flying, including outside, that they come back. That parrots who were flighted their whole life including outside decide to walk around instead of fly around. That climb instead of fly to go upstairs. Now, their body is currently designed for flight as flight is a necessity in the wild. What can you say about a Kakapo then?
When flight is not necessary to survive, their tactics change. Their choices, when given any, have changed. They don’t fly as far or as fast. When they do, they get hit by unnatural hawks and eagles they don’t experience. Getting eaten is not a nice way to go. Our guys learn this and use us as defense or learn by getting killed. Is that what I want for my bird? No. So, I limit their flight. Most of us limit their flight. But they NEED light. Sunlight, to be exact. That is something they must have. Flying is important, but to accomplish many metabolic processes, light is very important. That is something we need to tackle as they live with us and artificial light. They also need to be challenged mentally as that is what they have every day in the wild, flight or not. They learn something new daily between flock interactions and environmental. That is where we are seriously lacking. It’s that challenge to these guys we need to challenge ourselves on, not just their ability to go out and fly.
Parrots were not identified for their amazing flying ability. They were identified by their amazing climbing ability. Parrots can adapt amazingly well to so many different environments, I feel put to shame in our inability and subsequent need to conform the environment to fit our needs. Deserts, Rainforest, Alpine, coastal cliffs, snow, and even evolving flightlessness. All adaptations due to predation pressure and the type of food resource….what does that tell you?
Predation pressure and food resources keep most parrots aloft. Therefore, predation pressure causes their world to not just be about fun and games, but be about survival. How do they deal with predators? Get out and be loud and colorful in huge groups so the predator is made aware of and can’t get anyone because of all the chaos that ensues from the alarm calls. Unless that predator is a human. There is no winning against that.
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March 29, 2013 at 2:08 pm
Reply to Shari M. I am sorry you are so “down” on all bird people…but I have to take it that the reason is your approach to the matter, and not the facts involved. In other words, you have chosen a position about birds and bird people. That is your right. BUT, it is also the right of the rest of us to choose to keep and breed birds and to LOVE them in the process.
For instance, you believed the article on the HSUS website about Howard Voren and his birds. The fact of the matter is that this Professor Bergman is an out and out fabricator…either that or those who put the article on the website did the lying. This is not unusual for HSUS. Some years back they posted a wretched photo of an abandoned decrepit bird breeding facility and said it was the Scudders facility with birds in it! The HSUS followers and leaders will lie as it suits their purpose. We have seen plenty of evidence of that in the past and do expect more of it in the future. Slamming them??? No, just truth telling.
Now as to Voren and his birds. He was careful about this Bergman, but Bergman was tricky and thus we have the HSUS story on the website.
Just a quick note re the conures. Baby conures love to be in close knit groups. In the wild the conure flocks will all go into a nest hole for the night…crowding in and packing the nest cavity. Young birds being hand fed will crowd to the front of their baby cage when their hand feeder comes into view. While fully feathered, these birds are not ready for a large flight as they are still being hand fed. Most young parrots are on formula for some weeks after fledging. In the wild, they fly like adults but cannot feed themselves, according to videos of wild flocks with young birds in the flock. They are inept and inefficient in working on the fruits or nuts in the trees where the parents have landed.
Howard has given permission to post information about this Bergman event.
What follows are the critical parts of the interview process.
……………………………………………….
From: Charles Bergman
To: voren@voren.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 12:15 PM
Subject: Meet You
Dear Howard Voren,
I am planning in the next few weeks to visit with Paul Reillo and his
Imperial parrot project. I have loved parrots for a long time. Everyone
tells me you are perhaps the greatest person in the country in breeding
parrots, with many breakthroughs and incredible successes. I’d love to
meet you when I’m visiting with Paul. Would it be possible to set up a
time to meet and learn a bit about all you have accomplished for parrots.
Sincerely,
Charles Bergman
Professor, Department of English
Pacific Lutheran University
Tacoma, WA 98447
…………………………………
The intro through my neighbor Paul Reillo was legitimate enough however; the obvious stroking of my ego caused me to be immediately suspicious. My next move was to Google stalk him.
After investing quite some time, I was not able to find anything that tied him to the HSUS or any other propaganda organization. In fact everything pointed to him being a wonderful professor. His past students thought enough of him to rate him on line. Here are two examples.
“Shakespeare Lit: Such a fantastic professor! He knows his stuff, he is excited about Shakespeare and Tudor England, and he exudes that excitement onto his students. His stories, sometimes unrelated to class, are always fun and if I get the chance I will take any class with him I can. Truly great teacher, cannot recommend him enough!”
“Professor Bergman is one of the most amazing professors ever! He is brilliant and cares about his students. His class topics are very interesting. I am not the same person because of this professor, his class has given me so much!”
Weighing heavily in my decision to see him was the fact that he was visiting Paul Riello of the Rare Species Conservatory Foundation before coming to my farm. He also, in a phone conversation admitted that his interest in me was due to information he received form Paul. Although Paul pretends not to be involved in profiteering from the Pet Trade, to those he solicits donations for his Conservatory, both of you know that this is the furthest thing from the truth. As you know, I had historically funneled up to $20,000 per year into his organization from the sale of birds that where incubator hatched by him (to increase profitable production) and raised and sold by me to Marc for export to the Japanese Pet Trade. The sale of these birds to the Pet Trade went to help finance the Foundation. In fact, Paul still has several pairs of White-bellied Caiques on breeding loan at a local aviary with the understanding that the Foundation gets their cut of the profits when the offspring are sold to the Pet Trade. This further allowed me to believe that it was not a “set up” because if so, Paul would have to have been part of it. After all, he was coming here after going to Paul’s who also explained to him where I live as one can see from the below email
……………………………………………..
From: Charles Bergman
To: Howard Voren
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 2:25 PM
Subject: Meet Tomorrow
Hi Howard,
Hope you’re doing well. I’m really looking forward to meeting you; I’ve heard a lot about your amazing skill in breeding parrots. I know about where you live, having visited Paul’s place.
Tomorrow at about 11–should I come to your driveway? I can call you in the morning to fine tune timing and details, if you want. Also, I think I could find your driveway, but maybe it would be best if you sent the address.
Really looking forward to it!
Warmly,
Chuck
…………………………………..
Upon his arrival he explained that he wanted to write a truthful article about parrot production in the USA for the Pet Trade. He swore he was not interested in doing a “hatchet job” but wanted a view that would offset those views put out by those that know nothing about the production.
Did that send up a red flag?? OF COURSE!!
However, I immediately realized that if he was looking to profile a commercial breeding facility, he would eventually find something to profile. I would prefer that my farm be the one to be profiled rather than the farm of some “backyard” breeder where everything was not so professionally kept and clean as my facility.
Did I know he was affiliated with the HSUS?
OF COURSE NOT!
Did he twist much of what I said to make it look negative?
OF COURSE!
Did he take statements completely out of context to make a negative point? OF COURSE!
Did he editorialize negatively about things he never asked about?
OF COURSE!
Did he completely ignore the fact that every cage with adult pairs as well as babies in the rooms had ample wood branches from trees cut as chew toys?
OF COURSE!
Pay attention to all that
THEY COULD NOT GET WHICH YOU KNOW THEY WOULD HAVE LOVED TO GET from this supposed “EXPOSURE OF A BIRD MILL!!!!”
They could not get a picture of any of the below, not because I did not give him free reign but because it did not exist!!
THERE WERE NO
1. Birds that appeared ill
2. Birds in poor feather
3. Birds that were not in excellent physical condition.
4. Birds without shelter and exposed to the elements
5. Dirty cages.
6. Cages with a build up of droppings
7. Piles of rotting feed under the cages.
8. Weeds growing out of control under the cages.
9. Signs of rodent infestation
10. Dirty water dishes
11. Dirty food dishes
12. Baby birds in dirty brooding bins
13. Baby birds crying with hunger
14. Baby birds that appeared unhealthy.
15. Baby birds housed in rooms that were not immaculately clean.
Every bird at this facility is housed better, fed better and happier than the vast majority of those in any of the rescues that are supportive of the HSUS.
end quote form Howard
I think that Howard’s fifteen points above are well taken…if anyone knows anything about a large facility of any kind, his birds are well cared for. But, for the general public, they will not know that, just as they know little about dog breeding, farming in general, cattle ranching, poultry production, etc. The HSUS has long had an agenda of getting rid of pets in the US. I learned this in 1984 and have watched their efforts to do so through the years. The latest of course is the PUPS bill in Congress now…which will also affect bird breeders. It may look good on the surface, but it would be disastrous for all animal breeders in the US, just as this ESA listing of macaws will be the cause of their extinction in the US if the listing is approved.
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March 28, 2013 at 11:42 am
Hi there,
I have read what you said. If a lot of these birds had a wild to have that would be a different story, their homes are gone and their food is gone replaced with forgein food that if they eat they will be poisioned or shot and killed because of eating people’s crops. So you also think that dogs should be turned back to the wild and let them revert back to the wild and good chance they would attack people or livestock and alot of these birds are becoming domisticated. Also to point one thing out if a pair of birds are not happy they will not reproduce. Just as there are people that shouldn’t have children there are people that should not have pets but to lump them all together is just the narrow minded. Also were do you think these birds are going to survive not in there home land unless there is some kind of intervention for the safty of the speices, captive breeding is a must if we exspect these speices to survive in the future.
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April 2, 2013 at 1:33 pm
Great story about parrots and what they are fearful of… I was walking a trail in Rewa Guyana with a good friend and guide from the village, Kapash (means armadillo in Macushi) when we heard a Red and Green macaw in the distance. I asked Kapash if he could take me to the macaw and he said yes. We hacked through underbrush and hid behind trees as we got closer and closer to the macaw now sitting some 35 – 40 feet up and screaming his contact call to his mate. Directly below the macaw now, we parted the palm fronds in front of us and looked up. The macaw looked down. He did not fly away but Kapash stood breathless, turned to me and with a tear in his eye explained that this was the first time he had been this close to a macaw who had not turned and flown away. You see, Kapash was a macaw trapper and ALL of the macaws in a twenty mile radius knew him by sight and all would fly away. Surely, this bird too knew Kapash but this bird also knew that the trapping of parrots had ceased some 3 or 4 years ago. They no longer feared Kapash. In fact, many of the macaws were now flying into the village to take advantage of the fruiting palms, somehow knowing that they no longer had to be wary of the humans.
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April 2, 2013 at 2:20 pm
Now, THAT is a great story to share. Please go help Africa, Marc. Your passion could be used there.
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March 27, 2013 at 7:54 am
Bleak, lonely lives? Wow! Who knew?! I have 2 greys, one of whom has lived with me since 1985 when I picked him up at the local animal shelter because he was an escapee. The other has been in my life since he hatched in about 1983, and has lived with me since 2004. I hardly consider their lives bleak and lonely. They have interactions with humans, with each other, visual stimulation from the TV and the outside birds and squirrels through the windows behind their enclosures, and music on the radio when I’m at work or not at home. They have a babysitter when I travel and I’m very careful who I leave them with. They have toys and great food and lots of room, even in their enclosures, and someone who LOVES them and puts their needs first. Hardly birdie jail.
They say that opinions are like that certain body part south of the border that is not polite to reference … everybody has one. Do I think everyone should have a parrot? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Do I believe parrots are a one size fits all proposition? No. Like Patricia, I’m good with Greys, and a few others, but find that Amazons don’t like my energy all that much and I really don’t have the time to give a Cockatoo the incredible amount of attention it needs.
Anyone who’s watched 5 minutes on the Animal Planet knows that Nature isn’t always nice. We have all watched birds get hit by vehicles and seen their little bodies lying by the side of the road. We all collectively panic and hold our breath until a lost parrot is returned safely home because we all fear what could happen to the little guy “out there” … which could have happened to Greybird, had the animal shelter not taken him in and called a bird rescue (me) to come get him. And yes, some birds get brought into bad homes, but so do dogs, cats, children and wives. When we get the chance to do better and make things better, we do it – like doing our best to stop parrot trafficking and puppy mills.
In Genesis, God gives Adam dominion over the animals. I believe he still holds us accountable for that, to take care of his creation. I, for one, am grateful for that opportunity and have been and continue to be blessed by it. Personally, without my birds, it’s my life that would be bleak and lonely
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March 27, 2013 at 8:00 am
And, for the record … those commercials by HSUS ought to be outlawed. I turn the channel or leave the room. There really has to be a better way to raise funds than to exploit the exploited.
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March 27, 2013 at 8:10 am
While the “wild” is quite wild, unsafe, and diminishing in some areas (poaching, logging, etc), it is their natural habitat. Humans are a very arrogant species. We believe ourselves to be the most intelligent and most moral of all animals. And, we believe ourselves to be the answer to the plight of the parrot when we are in fact the cause. (poaching, logging, etc)
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March 27, 2013 at 8:15 am
I agree with you, Irena. I’m merely pointing out that it’s not all skittles and beer in the wild either. It’s rough out there. Given the choice, most parrots would prefer freedom. But humans do not understand that it’s a tough life. I want people to understand that living in the wild is not easy for a bird. And to glamorize it is unfair.
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March 27, 2013 at 8:29 am
Agreed, Patricia. There are pros and cons with every situation.
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March 27, 2013 at 11:28 am
Humans are arrogant, but then that is the nature of the beast I think, but Irena,, what is your answer? Are you planning on turning your rescued birds out back to their natural habitat?
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March 29, 2013 at 9:19 am
What???? But it is fair to glamorize life in captivity? Sure, lots of videos of dancing birds makes us all think they are happy but to see them in undisturbed habitat is amazing and, truly, no words I could ever write would be able to express how wonderful their lives are. Now, you say… but there is so little unspoiled habitat… Well, there is a lot left and if any of you are not doing something to help save what is left then you should start. It is so fascinating to me how few of this “parrot loving” community got behind the Guyana project. None of you to be exact. We have saved habitat, aided in the education of kids who are now lawyers who are working to save the Amerindian lands and the parrots in them from the loggers, the miners and the oil companies. Imagine what those people could do with your help… With the little assistance we have been giving to the two villages we work in we have made a demonstrable difference in the attitudes of the people and most importantly, the KIDS! I will be happy to forward a study showing what a little help can do.
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March 29, 2013 at 9:44 am
Yes. Let’s be honest. There is more to life in the wild than hanging from the treetops screaming with joy. For those who have trekked into the jungles and the wilds in various parts of the world, they have seen glorious wild birds and animals…and IF they are around long enough, they also see horrific predation. That is life in the real world and IMO it should not be compared to life in our homes or aviaries.
Life in a good aviary can be wonderful for these FLEXIBLE birds. Parrots are smart and genetically programmed to be very adaptable. That is what allows them to live happy lives in good home situations or aviaries. Consider that humans are smart and adaptable and we left our lives in the wild long ago because we decided it was a lot nicer to have a warm abode, regular meals, and safety.
As far as supporting conservation goes, there are a lot of good conservation projects out there and many bird breeders and pet owners do contribute to those projects. In some cases, they are in charge of the conservation projects. As well as conservation projects, they participate in research projects to add to the base of knowledge about specific species. They also collect and share detailed information on the incubation of eggs, the raising of chicks, the best types of diets, housing, and detailed information specific to a parrot species. Without actual birds in hand to work with, none of this would be possible. In some cases this information has directly facilitated the work of field biologists: two examples: the Brown headed parrots in Africa and the Buffons macaws in Central America. Then there are donations parrot owners make to university research on parrots: UC Davis and Texas A&M are just two recipients of such donations.
None of the above excuses the neglectful conditions that many rescues provide for the birds they take in, nor does it excuse the neglectful parrot owners who haven’t obtained the knowledge they need or bothered to provide the proper care to their birds. But, the fact remains that as long as we have humans who abuse their own babies, we can expect there will be some mentally incompetent, abusive or vicious people who will not provide the care needed to their parrots. That is also a part of the real world, but thankfully, that is not the situation for the majority of parrots in the US or in other homes world wide. We do need to promote education on the appropriate care for parrots as well as promote the support of conservation projects for birds in the wild. As long as palm oil plantations are being created in Indonesia, and soy farms expanded in South America, our parrots and other wildlife are at risk of extinction in the wild. Human populations are expanding world wide at an incredible rate and that means just one thing…shrinking habitat for all wildlife.
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March 29, 2013 at 1:12 pm
Loved this reply, Laurella.
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March 29, 2013 at 1:07 pm
Guess what, Marc. You would not have even started the Guyana project were it not for your direct experience being with parrots. And you want to deny that to everyone else in the future? And then expect the same desire in following generations to expend all expense and energy toward saving something they’ve never personally experienced? Good luck.
Saving a species requires tremendous dedication and work. Not just this measly stuff called MONEY. I love how people think that throwing money at something will solve the problem. Well, it helps a lot. But ACTIVE PARTICIPATION is the only thing that will truly make the difference. Get out of the house and go and activate! How this is accomplished is to create altruism. If we don’t understand an interaction with something how can we act altruistically towards it? We are talking action here. The action you are taking now to type any of this. You would not do this if all you had to experience a parrot was as most people have it–through Nat Geo. Seeing things on TV just does not cut the mustard to get people out of the house, see and touch things to understand it fully. Inspire by being inspirational.
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March 28, 2013 at 11:54 am
Very true but through interactions with other speices we see how smart and emotional they really are and with every experince we learn more than people that set on there duffs and talk down people for learning and experincing and becoming emotional involved with other speices.
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March 27, 2013 at 8:55 am
I agree wholeheartedly with you Patricia. You are so right – the wild is rough and not safe. While parrots would prefer freedom, the fact is that there are way too many birds out there who have been abused and would not be able to survive in the wild. I am one of those crazy people out there that adores cockatoos. I’ve only had 3 years experience, but I just adore them. As the proud parront of a Goffin’s Cockatoo, my little one was abused by his first family. As a result, he picks out his flight feathers and cannot fly. He could not survive in the wild. I am in the process of looking at an U2 to add to my flock as well. Although I know my G2 would love to hang around a whole flock of other G2s in the wild, it is just not possible. Therefore, people like you are here to teach people like me how to properly care for our birds. I try my best to make sure he has a good life and is well cared for. As someone said above and I believe it too, we are responsible for all of the creatures on this planet and their habitat. We are ruining this world at a rapid pace. We are responsible for many animals in the wild dying because we are taking their habitat. What makes that any better? Are those animals in the wild who no longer have a place to call home any better off? How could you say they are? Some people just don’t get it and just don’t understand.
So, please don’t give up. We need more people like you!!!
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March 27, 2013 at 12:07 pm
I want to add that I have a great deal of respect for Irena and the work she does to promote the care of our feathered flocks,,, she is to be commended and applauded for her care and I did not mean to offend her in any manner by my response
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March 27, 2013 at 9:12 am
Thank you for writing this! I read the article while I was in a dr appt with my teenage daughter. I even asked if I could pay them for the magazine because I wanted to reread it to make sure I got it all. So over lunch she and I poured over it……… picked it apart very much like my birds pick their breakfast apart and I have been ranting for over a week now! I would like to know where their numbers came from because while I have seen some very bad cases for the most part the people I know are terrific bird moms and dads. Working with a rescue has shown me we are BADLY needing more homes but honestly this happens with every living being. There are lots of children needing foster homes, dogs, cats, reptiles and yes even birds. Until people quit buying and starting adopting more there will be a constant need for foster/adopter homes.
So thank you for writing this because you hit most every rant I had…….. my poor family has had to listen to me too much! LOL I even told the fids how their life must be horrible…….. of course they agreed and ordered more treats! Oh and as for Too’s…….. I live with a Grey, Macaw, and a Too………….. Personally I find the Grey most challenging but WOW do I sometimes wish I could duct tape the Too’s beak! Thank goodness I have hearing aids! 🙂
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March 27, 2013 at 9:29 am
The problem with the philosophy of Ms. Tweti and Marc Johnson is that they believe birds should not be in homes at all. Instead of working to make homes better, they and HSUS want to outlaw having birds in homes. My question to them has always been, where should the birds that are in homes go if we cannot keep them? Most of the birds that are in homes now would never be releasable, and many do not want to be in “flocks” with other birds. I have a couple who would not be happy with out human contact.
The philosophy should be to educate the humans so that birds will have better lives in homes. You do that Patricia and many of us work to help keep birds in homes and to make their lives good there. Instead of wasting time and money to put out this kind of propaganda, why does’nt HSUS put out the money to help rescues educate people?
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March 27, 2013 at 10:06 am
So well put Bonnie – I was having difficulty expressing that view – thank you for that! It is so true!
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March 27, 2013 at 9:15 pm
Absolutely agree Bonnie. I always asked that question too ~ what would they want to do with the birds already in captivity? In my honest opinion, HSUS is greedy and the plight of parrots in captivity and those that help them is growing by leaps and bounds and taking away the donations that HSUS once cornered the market on.
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March 29, 2013 at 9:24 am
Bull crap Bonnie… Eventually I would love to see humans evolve beyond keeping flighted animals as terrestrial companions and until every bird in captivity has a home and the pet trade in parrots is abandoned we will be behind those who take in a parrot in need.
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March 29, 2013 at 9:32 am
Also, the longer Patricia allows people to repeat the same insanity without debunking these claims that we, amongst others, are saying that we should set all birds free (totally false) the longer we are going to see people asking the same question “what would they want to do with the birds already in captivity?” NOBODY is suggesting we do away with, set free or otherwise cause suffering to the parrots now here with us. We must take care of those now here but we do hope the day will come when people see the inherent cruelty of keeping a creature born to fly in a confined space.
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March 29, 2013 at 9:54 am
Marc, I think everyone understands that we cannot free the birds already in captivity. And I think one of the reasons that birds with organizations that rehome them is because people ARE becoming more educated about them. The public is beginning to wake up to the fact that this is a tough pet to keep. Many are no longer willing to take on the responsibility because they’ve learned how hard it is.
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March 27, 2013 at 10:09 am
Opinions are just that, opinions. I had also been treated to that article and wondered where they got their statistics – I feel anyone can use statistics anyway they want, to support anything they are pushing. And yes I believe Mr.Bergman and HSUS are both trying to push their own agenda. Reading Mr. Bergman’s bio one can see he is an expert in everything natural (I too know about plants and animals, and have an advanced degree in both Biology and Chemistry – but have not been able to get people foolish enough to send me to exotic locals to push my agenda). The HSUS no longer assists the domesticated and pet animals in this nation, they have turned into a political agency that uses donations to push political agendas. As for Mr. Bergman, he has a book to sell and stirring the pot may just help his book tour. As for me, I have seen way too many of those so-called perfectly fine domesticated pets in shelters and homeless on the streets to say the pet bird issue is because they are not suppose to be pets. If that is the tool we measure things with than, better get rid of pet dogs and cats because the shelters are packed and there are loose ones on the street. I have had rescue pets since I have lived on my own (many years ago) and can tell you my birds are as well fed, cared for, and attended to as has been the case with any of my dogs, cats, fish, and other pets. Yes, there is a problem with rescues and birds and yes the rescues have been very upfront about this. Part of the issue is that our “regular SPCA rescues” don’t know what to do with anything other than a dog or cat. I applaud the way many of the bird rescues have developed a system of working together. As for HSUS and Mr. Bergman, well let him have his 15 minutes and I quit donating or even watching the HSUS commercials years ago.
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March 27, 2013 at 10:40 am
Just to put in my 2 cents, I am not a big fan of the way HSUS spends money and do not donate to them. I also think the people who think all parrots and exotic pet birds “should be free” are unrealistic. Birds have been kept as pets for thousands of years-that’s just the way it has been.People keep primates and other exotics that shouldn’t be pets also. At this point in their very long lives, we can not release them back into the wild so we must do the best we can to provide them with a quality way of life and companionship. That does not mean that we should encourage domestic breeding for sale or importing wild babies/adults. That’s where the answer lies for the next century. Even if a 10 yr moratorium on breeding were legally imposed, there would still be more parrots and exotic pet birds in rescues and sanctuaries than there are appropriate homes for-but I am preaching to the choir here. The people I know and deal with as customers are willing to spend their time and money enhancing the quality of life of their avian family member!
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March 27, 2013 at 10:58 am
Hi Patricia and first of all thank you for reading the article I sent ya. I know how busy you are and I can’t imagine keeping up with a flying schedule plus writing, plus having time for birds which you certainly make a priority. I’m always in the “more information” camp on everything, so the more good info we can get out, and call b.s. on these groups that raise millions of dollars and don’t actually help animals, the better.
Many people think that the HSUS gives to local shelters when they don’t, that they save every animal they seize, which they don’t. Their priorities are to ban breeding and pet ownership, sadly enough, and I always wonder how many of their staff have pets. Probably most, I’m guessing, but I’m sure they think that’s okay and the rest of us need to give ours up. They need to start helping people learn more about caring for their animals, not seizing hundreds of them to get onto the news and then euthanizing them or not taking proper care of them. I remember reading about a seizure a year or two ago where there were baby birds involved and many died because the people taking the birds had no clue how to feed a baby and didn’t find out. Atrocious doesn’t begin to cover that one.
Thank you again for what you do and the information you get out there. I’m sure it takes a huge toll on you!
And trust me, my birds have great lives like so many others. They were domestically bred babies and so are very used to that lifestyle – no stress from not flying in jungle trees. I’d love to adopt maybe one or two more rescues who need homes sometime, but I sure can’t have 40 like I used to (and they were almost all rescues that I re-homed over the years). Getting a little too old to do that, which is why I love to volunteer on vacations!
Geez, I hate that word “old.” I figure I’m halfway there, since I have an aunt who just turned 100, ha!
Hang in there!
🙂
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 5:18 AM, Parrot Nati
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March 27, 2013 at 11:35 am
it is indeed a “mixed bag”, In a perfect world, all wildlife belongs in their natural envirnonment, but so many species already extinct because their natural habitat has gone away. I fully support the stoppage of all hunting of parrots, but believe there is room for responsible breeding, no one is going to stop wanting birds as pets, and what pushes the poaching is the lack of being able to obtain what people want. Do away with domestic breeding and I can guarantee the poaching will increase…. sad situation….perfect solution, wish I had one, but how in such an imperfect world…
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March 27, 2013 at 11:11 am
Say what you will about the HSUS, but this is a telling article that isn’t far from the truth. Maybe my birds are happy, but what about their parents? For every parrot we keep, there are two parents living miserable lives, existing only to make money for the “capitalist” breeders. They get small enclosures, no toys, and no breaks. They are forced to double-clutch, putting even more stress on the hen. Please, someone point out an upside to this, because I can’t find one.
LIfe in the wild may not be ideal, but it’s the life parrots have evolved and adapted to for millions of years. We go out into the world every day of our lives. No one likes staying home day after day after day. Imagine being cooped up in your house and yard (if you have one) year after year. People moan about being sick for a week!
We can rationalize all we want, but that doesn’t change the truth. Life in captivity is just as precarious, given life expectancy. There was a new research paper done on the subject, and it is bleak. It surveys the maximum life span of parrots, but also gives the median in captivity, and it is far shorter.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1795.2011.00477.x/full#t2
Does that mean we should stop trying to make parrots in captivity as happy as possible? Of course not, but let’s not stick our heads in the sand with regard to the misery of parrots in captivity all over the world.
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March 28, 2013 at 8:47 pm
Hi Shari – this is Julie Murad from The Gabriel Foundation, a voice from the past. I’ve seen your posts for several years and didn’t realized you’d moved from the west coast to the east coast. Do you still have the Grey that you adopted from TGF when you worked for us all those years ago? I’m having a truly senior moment. I’d love to know more now that it’s nearly 15 years later.
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March 29, 2013 at 7:02 pm
Hi Julie. Absolutely! Ren is still with me and doing great. I also still have my first two, Fred and Igor, two additions, and a bunch of rescues that came through and rehomed. I still think about Norman from time to time. I know it would be a miracle if he were still around. What a special kid.
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March 29, 2013 at 7:21 pm
And I have two Greys that Shari graciously placed with me. Pepper and Nyla are both relinquishment rehoming cases Shari handled. It was a very thoughtful placement and it was the right one. They are both happy and thriving.
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March 29, 2013 at 7:54 pm
Yes, Pepper was my first placement, and it really feels good to know how happy everyone is at the Sund home. ❤
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March 27, 2013 at 11:35 am
Well, more people need to change the channel. I’m sick of these unsubstantiated claims that there are million of parrots in peoples’ homes out there in need of rescue. If so, where are they? It might start with no longer giving the drama reward of our attention to people who make big claims with big numbers with no evidence whatsoever. These people have an agenda. If it’s to sell a book and make a living, fine, but when it’s HSUS and PETA looking like pet grabbers who don’t care for pets themselves…I’m sick of it. Made-up statistics should be ignored, not given publicity. Just my two cents.
I have had ONE parrot brought to me for rescue in the 20 years since 1992. ONE. The population of captive parrots has collapsed around here. Admittedly that’s just one data point. But all of my birds are over age 20 except the rescue and I no longer often meet people who have pet birds. Instead I meet people who think it’s a crazy, highly unusual thing. So that’s one data point and just as valid as some other guy’s completely invented data.
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March 27, 2013 at 11:43 am
Peach Front, where are you located? Statistics aside, I can tell you what I see with my own eyes in Florida is appalling. Rescues are full and owners put their birds on waiting lists just hoping a rescue will have an opening in the near future. Also, too many birds coming into rescue suffer from years of poor nutrition and living in cramped quarters. The rescue I volunteer for spends well over 80% of its yearly budget on vet care alone.
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March 27, 2013 at 9:56 pm
Chris, I am in Iowa, and have only 4 birds in my Rescue. We have had nothing turned in in months. I wish I could help the overloaded rescues out there. I have lots of room, and no takers. I agree about HSUS their advertising is heart rendering and false.
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March 27, 2013 at 11:32 pm
maybe an arrangement could be made to transfer birds to you from the overcrowded/overloaded rescues? and maybe volunteers could form a “trail ride” to avoid having to ship the birds commercially…..
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March 27, 2013 at 11:39 am
Well, when it comes to the HSUS, it looks like everyone commenting knows the score….HSUS has an agenda…and it is not FOR the birds! These people like Bergman and Tweti are beating the drums for the animal rights agenda of NO animals or birds in our lives. Well, ever since humans started living in caves, they have had birds and animals in their lives. And, I suspect, we smart humans will continue to do so. In regards to the ARs comment about all these terribly abused unhappy birds that should be flying free (to be caught by hawks, monkeys, large lizards, snakes and even alligators…(if you saw the video of the alligator in South America leap from the water to snatch a baby Blue and Gold taking its first, and last flight). Oh yes…happy? Hmmm, the fact of the matter is that prey animals, which are most parrots, are on the lookout every minute or they are dead. Ever see that video of the African grey flocks eating on the river banks in Africa? There were lookout birds in the trees. On signal, one flock would fly down to forage, and then on signal, fly up, and another flock fly down. The signal birds were on watch for predators. The only two studies I know of do indicate that half the baby parrots that fly out of their nests are dead before they are a year old. Then there are the videos of the parent amazons who fly out of their nests to forage, and upon being gone a few minutes, a smart hawk flies into the nest and carries out a chick. Then there is the video set up by biologists monitoring macaw nests and wondering why the chicks kept disappearing. Well, the video of the macaw nest showed a nice big chick and the parents. Then the parents left to forage. Then a shadow appeared and dropping down into the nest hole, a large hawk grabbed the chick and carried it off to feed to its young. This was a huge macaw chick and the hawk wasn’t much larger! So much for life in the wild…happy and free. Now that is b.s. The birds are free alright, but they are busy trying to stay alive and to forage for food and to rear young. Because parrots are so smart, they have survived millions of years. But, that does not mean life in the wild is a party! Life here in the US for our native birds is no party either. According to Angela Herschel, a wildlife rehab outfit had some of their volunteers put special video cams on their domestic pet cats…and the results were not pretty. The cats were proven to be very successful killers of native birds and animals! Our native birds and animals have no history with these efficient killers. So, life in the wild in the US is no picnic either. Keeping house cats indoors will help.
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March 27, 2013 at 12:03 pm
Great article Patricia. I believe that Laurella is correct in her post above. The Humane Society has an agenda. That agenda is to put an end to all pet ownership. Politically it is easier to start with birds because there are fewer pet bird owners and many people just don’t understand the lure of birds as pets. It’s a case of first they came for the birds, then they came for the reptiles, then they came for our dogs and cats. .
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March 27, 2013 at 12:53 pm
Patricia, Thanks so much for showing both sides of the story.
Yes the wild is a natural life but full of danger and death. Our domestic birds would not last a day in that life, they don’t know how. And Yes there are bad pet owners who have birds in captivity, but watch the news one evening; there are bad people in all parts our world. Fortunately they are the minority.
Thank you to the many people who devote their lifes to their birds, and to those who take the time to educate and help people keep their birds instead of getting rid of them or sending them to a rescue.
Thank You to the people who breed birds responsibly, so that we may enjoy these wonderful creatures. I know many are against breeding and birds in captivity, but if you think about it, really think about it; the birds here in the US have more of a chance of the species surviving. Not everyone should be a pet owner, and not everyone can manage with different species, Part of the education is to teach more about the different species so people can choose the right one for them. It is also important for those wanting a pet ( bird or otherwise ) to learn about them before taking them home.
Deforestation, Human and Animal Predators in their native lands are causing more problems than the people in the US are with captive bred birds.
If we want birds to be in our future, and future generations; we have to help educate people on how to care for the ones in captivity, we have to work with rescues to adopt birds to more homes that are suitable for the birds, and we have to let people know that HSUS and other similar organizations are not helping the birds. Those groups are building coffiers from innocent people who think they are helping animals when the real truth is they want all animals gone from our world, and they are using the naive people to give them money to do it.
My final comment: we can’t fix stupid, but we can help those who want to learn !
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March 27, 2013 at 1:02 pm
Patricia,
Once more, well done:) I’m sad you did not quote my birds as living happily too:) Just kidding. Now, on to the meat of the situation. Which is long and I apologize.
The problem and plight of parrots. Let’s get some perspective on my perspective. Firstly, I have a flock of 8 birds right now. 2 are someone else’s birds that we cooperatively care for. 3 came from Rainforest Cafe. 2 came from a previous home. 1 came from 5 different homes and finally 1 was purchased from a breeder to come home with me as a pet. I have been to S. America to observe wild parrots. I have my degree in Psychobiology, Animal Congnition and Behavior. I have helped rescue loose birds, I volunteer to help several rescue groups for parrots and now opened a new chapter, a nonprofit foundation that looks to address this core issue of parrots–US! (visit http://www.flight-club-foundation.org)
Parrots, as the order Psittaciformes, is over 250 million years old. They have adapted through a hot planet, ice planet, our planet we know now. The form the parrot takes is highly adaptable to varied environments which is why we see such dispersal of the Order. Humans came into the picture, that we are historically aware of, about 250,000 years ago. Our written history of people and parrots is less than 5,000 years old. Our impact on parrot diversity, dispersion, speciation has been no less than completely devastating. The question is why?
Was it solely because of the pet trade? No. Because if that was the case, the critically endangered, thought to be extinct, yellow eared parrot which is not in aviculture at least here in the US and not widely bred in most areas I know about, is still just as nearly extinct as that of a blue throated macaw as that of the Spix. The Spix is not just because of the pet trade. Their caatinga habitat was something that never was preserved and was raised by cattle. The carolina conure, we not only shot them out in droves, not to have as PETS, but we destroyed their natural habitat. And they lived here in the wild and we could take as many as we wanted as pets.
So, honestly. The pet trade is devastating to an African Grey. It is not devastating to the entire ORDER. What IS devastating them out there is our inaction and desire to take what we want from the very ecosystem without considering consequences of that take. Let’s take that mahogany tree. Let’s take that gold. Let’s take that land and make it corn. Let’s take that land and make it all grass for cows. Let’s burn it for the cows.
Let’s face it. When a human is starving, what is more important, saving a parrot or eating it? We are, for the most part, not a starving nation. Therefore, it is very difficult to fathom the desperation of starvation and what it does to people. Our poor are far richer than many countries as far as MONEY. That crap is what is ruining us all. Money truly has no inherent value except the value we perceive.
When I went to Peru and saw the tin houses people lived in and the mange dogs and the various things a third world country is all about, I was amazed by the people. THEY STILL CARED ABOUT SOMETHING, not just about money. They had nothing they could offer us, but would still give us anything we asked of them. They work hard but they don’t call it hard work. They are starving and could be vicious but instead try to work cooperatively. They being the people of Puerto Maldanado. Granted, there are probably gangs, etc. But what does this have to do with parrots? Simple. We are developing an apathetic, apologetic society that wants to point the finger somehwere instead of putting the hand down altogether and working cooperatively toward the same goal.
Can a parrot be owned as a pet? YES. Should we ban parrots as whole from ever being owned as a pet again since they should be wild. I don’t think so. If we just leave a parrot to be a parrot in the wild, which is a tough place to be, they will all go extinct because we just will stop caring more and more and more. Awesome, parrots get to make their own decisions out there. But mine make theirs here, what’s the difference? Heart attack? Well, that’s because mine live twice as long as those out there.
Don’t kid yourself that the decisions of a parrot in the wild have nothing to do with us. You are DEAD WRONG. We are managing every single species on our planet. It is up to us as to who stays and who goes wether we know that OR NOT. Wether we care OR NOT. In the US, we are driving ourselves to divide, conquer each other, and think the world is about money when it is about so much, much more. Parrots show us this.
How can I possibly deny having a three year old desiring a parrot because of what I taught them that they can then teach others? Will they ALWAYS end up in oblivion? Only if we let our apathy continue on it’s nasty course it’s taking. Parrots have the ability to get into the homes we are closing off from “NATURE”. Joel Sartore, Nat Geo photographer, just gave a talk about conservation, etc and he also feels we are not doing enough, but what does it take to get the apathetic generations’ attention? To me, a parrot! They can be in that living room.
It is up to us as educators, entertainers, breeders, lovers, writers, to COME TOGETHER and make parrots living with us ever better instead of throwing in the towel to an overwhelming problem. This article only added more to the problem. Great. Now, everyone is even more guilty about having a parrot. Just what we don’t need.
We cannot ever again let our guard down to parrots in the wild. It is now completely the job of every parrot that lives with a human in the entire world to be the ambassadors of those out there. They do not have to lead a bleak life unless you want to be one of the masses who have to believe that. I don’t believe it myself. I think we can foster growth, empathy, and cooperation if we had more parrots in loving homes learning from people to care about them instead of chasing them off with these awful HSUS and PETA agendas that are doing a fine job of removing all animals from schools, libraries and now our homes. GREAT JOB creating more apathy. I applaud Chris Bergman for the work he did because he did upset me, created apathy in me and even caused me to loose focus. He just helped ruin the very thing he loves most by writing this article. I would not be too proud of that.
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March 27, 2013 at 2:21 pm
Very nice, thoughtful comment. I would add that apathy alone is not the cause— part of it is the overwhelming, daily barrage of information. Most of it unhappy, and there doesn’t seem to be any living creature that isn’t hurting in some way.
Who to save— parrots, polar bears or people? If we get sucked into that trap, we won’t be able to do anything. Respect for all life is the only way out.
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March 27, 2013 at 1:31 pm
I am in bed, not feeling very well, and a visitor has just flown into see how I am.
She is a 9 year old African Grey.. and was very surprised to see her ‘mother’ in bed.. you could see the grey cells working “what to do, what to do” but she flew off, only to come back with her favourite toy which she put in my hand as if to say “here, play with this, it wil cheer you up”.
Bird brain indeed.
If that did not demonstrate the connection between a bird and a human of affection, I’m not sure what would.
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March 27, 2013 at 2:56 pm
Just one quick fact. The HSUS/Fund for Animals has the Duchess Sanctuary, Black Beauty Ranch (sanctuary) and two wonderful rehab/release facilities helping wildlife. They do give grants to help animals (despite NOT being a foundation), do direct rescues, aid in placements, and much more.
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March 27, 2013 at 6:41 pm
Shari Mirojnick, I think that you are misinformed. It isn’t your fault though. Allow me to clear the air. First of all, why you think that parent breeder birds live a miserable life shows that you have no idea about breeding birds. Birds are snobs; big time. If their conditions are not ideal, they will NOT breed. And for the record it is NOT possible to force birds to breed. If breeding was easy, humans would not need to intervene and the endangered lists would not continue to grow. These statements are so far from correct that they usually get ignored as would a 2 year old human child attempting to teach a college level class. I figure that because you openly made such statements you don’t know what is what so I will shed some light for you. At least you spoke up and will now have real information to work with.
If breeder parents do not have proper lighting, temperatures, humidity, nutrition, nest box, nest material, enclosure enrichment (toys) and overall ideal environment they will NOT breed, period, end of story. If it was that simple to breed birds then there would not be a growing number of endangered birds. As far as the “money” that you are referring to… you might want to rethink that too. Add up these hours and estimate payroll. Hatchlings usually get pulled from their nestboxes at week 2. The human breeder then feeds the baby every two hours around the clock for several days. Then on day five the human breeder can sometimes drop the feedings down to five times a day. Eventually, the human breeder can drop feedings down to three times a day for approximately 3 months (sometimes less or longer, depending on the species) with NO days off. Now, take out your calculator and add that all up and tell me where exactly you think there is “money” being made? Keep in mind that formula, syringes, paper towels, bedding… all needs to go into that expense figure as well. All too often people seem to overlook all that the human breeders put into keeping these precious parrot species thriving and it is not easy. The hardest part is when human breeders have to day one hand feed. We don’t even have to calculate what goes into that.
To be a breeder is to be a true passionate aviculturist. Granted, from time to time there are rotten people in this world that do not deserve to be held in high regard. But for the most part, human bird breeders are amazing and should not be judged or scrutinized as though they are part of the few rotten people out there. I only surround myself with amazing aviculturists. I know hundreds of breeders and even more pet owners and all of us do a great job with our birds (pet and breeder). I do NOT care to be tied to the few rotten people out there as I am sure you don’t either.
For the record, my birds LOVE living in this captive western civilization. They do not want to be living in jungles. As I appreciate my cage called a home and my most favorite cage enclosure is the bathroom, I really appreciate that part of western civilization. There are humans that live in jungles and they view us as being “caged” people and they feel sorry for us. So, that being said, my birds and I love our air conditioning and heat and roof over our heads. We have all evolved together. Go figure…
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March 28, 2013 at 12:37 am
Thank you Concetta for the comments on breeding and the many breeders who take wonderful care of their parent birds and babies. I’ve owned/rescued/bred birds for over 30 years, done school shows, given people help with their birds and spent thousands of dollars of my own money volunteering in foreign countries and in the US to help parrots. I figure if I’m going to own them I should give back, too.
I get tired of all of this misinformation and
vilifying of breeders. Yes, some are bad. But there are a lot of good ones and contrary to the information that sometimes is put out there, parrots are NOT easy to breed in “parrot mills.” Yes there are birds waiting to be adopted into good homes just like there are dogs, cats, horses, etc. Should all dog breeders be forced to quit because so many dogs are homeless, and no one can get a puppy if that’s their choice? Dogs used to be wild too – should we return all of them there? No, let’s deal with reality and encourage education and communication. There are some GREAT groups on FaceBook, for one place, in addition to Patricia’s blog, of course, that are relaying all sorts of good suggestions on diet and care. People are sharing their knowledge and asking questions, not pointing fingers and trying to pass legislation banning pet ownership. People like Barbara Heidenrich and Scott Echols give their time and advice to help owners. Efforts such as breeding the Spix Macaw are an example of what we can do to save species. When people work together they can accomplish amazing things. When their only interest is money… well… donate to your local humane society, folks. And you can then see the results that actually do help animals.
Thank you Patricia!
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March 27, 2013 at 7:57 pm
What a thought provoking blog article. I love it, Patricia! I like the fact that you make us think from several different angles on this one. As a companion parrot owner, I like to think of myself as an excellent “parront.” I spend a lot of time planning foraging activities, healthy and enticing meals, cleaning (oh, the cleaning!), making toys, buying perches, toys, and of course, spending quality time with my pet birds on a daily basis. My husband even built a huge indoor aviary that sits in our great room for the birdies! Even still, I cannot help but feel that my feathered friends miss out on living in a large flock of their own kind, with daily sunshine in the rainforest, and flying miles a day. There’s certainly no way that I can duplicate any of that in my home in Virginia. I do think my birds are quite happy. Would they be happier in the wild, daily sunshine, warm temps, being in a large flock, raising their families? I can’t help but think that they might. I do often wonder. So, I try, try, and try to continue to educate myself, better myself as a parrot owner, and do what I can to provide enrichment and better their lives. I still feel that I fail to be able to provide some of the aspects of the wild, which were their God given rights. ❤ Peace.
Kristen
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March 27, 2013 at 8:11 pm
I will be happy to rehome any parrots that are not wanted….I will love them and make a loving and safe and happy place to stay….I will also try to find them someone to love and treat them with respect…..the ones I rescue don’t know what the “wild” is and will never know but I promise to do my best……
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March 27, 2013 at 8:29 pm
I am the owner of a U2, or should I say she owns me! I am on the verge of homelessness….staying with a friend….an awesome friend that has taken me and my Too….finding a job and a place to live will be a tough road. My too is like my kid, amd giving her up is not an option. I wish breeders would stop over populating the bird world, as it is for profit and the birds suffer if they end up in a home where their owner either dies before them, gets ill or just can’t take care of them. I wish I knew then what I know now about my U2…. I wouldn’t trade her for the world,but they are tough….and yes even st. Francis would be tested by them. Thanks for your great articles Pat!
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March 27, 2013 at 11:39 pm
Lisa, I wish you good luck in finding a new home for you and your too,,, yes, living with a too is an experience. I don’t see the breeders as overpopulating the world but the key to it is being a responsible breeder,,, breeders need to educated the prospective parronts about the bird they are interested in having, and this applies to all birds, not just cockatoos…. I did extensive research when getting my grey and then my husband calls me and says that my daughter wants “this white bird”, well I knew it was a U2, my daughter worked at the breeders at this time,, I thought OH BOY, but like you I can’t imagine being without him,,, reminds me of a plaque my sisterinlaw gave me shortly after my son was born, went something like “I wouldn’t take a million bucks for this boy of mine, but some days, try offering me a dime”,,, again good luck in your hunt for a new home and God bless you and your friend for letting you bring your too with you
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March 27, 2013 at 8:37 pm
There are many people who prefer to be with animals than their own kind. Too many animals world wide, living in the wild, are killed just for a part of their body to make a buck. Animals in labs to be tested on. Animals mistreated and abused just for the fun of it..Animals on the brink of extinction or already extinct thanks to humans, and it wasn’t and isn’t natural. It’s pure greed, stupidity and arrogance. Yes, we humans are so good to animals that we let them live their happy lives in the wild. Animals, almost any animal, can be happy with the right humans, the one’s who actually care about them and their well being and jump through flaming hoops to do anything and everything for them. So when the human race wakes the hell up and realizes they are destroying themselves by destroying everything nature, then we can talk about where animals would be happiest…
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March 27, 2013 at 9:33 pm
Wow Lisa, I applaud you for your dedication and I know what you mean about economy and how your feel about your fid (feathered kid). As for your wish about breeding U2’s, it is closer than you might think. Umbrella Cockatoos are listed in appendix II of the CITES. Now imagine a life without them. It is a sad thought isn’t it? I can’t imagine life without my parrots especially my Too. The next generation may never see a baby U2 and the generations after that might never see them at all except for in books.
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March 27, 2013 at 11:33 pm
that is why I support responsible breeding, there is a place for them in the avian world
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March 27, 2013 at 10:03 pm
I am in Iowa, and have only 4 birds in my Rescue. We have had nothing turned in in months. I wish I could help the overloaded rescues out there. I have lots of room, and no takers. I agree about HSUS their advertising is heart rendering and false. Thank You Patricia for always offering thought provoking articles and information.
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March 28, 2013 at 9:11 pm
First, I’d like to quickly mention how this whole conversation has turned into a slam-fest on the HSUS. It’s not what I got from this blog post. I got something more important, but if you all want to play the victim, so be it. Regardless of what you think of them or the author, the picture that is presented by the leading aviculturist in this country is dismal, at best. Howard Voren is the leading authority on breeding parrots, and has been for eons, and his birds, by his own sentiment, are nothing but capital. Personally, I think that’s a very sad state for all those parent birds.
Second, I am truly amazed how breeders use ridicule, propaganda, and their own misinformation so openly. Oh Concetta, I suppose I need to toot my own horn now, and give you my short-list resume. I’ve been working with parrots for almost 20 years. I started out working in stores that catered to people with parrots, and selling parrots, and I worked with plenty of breeders. I’ve also worked in rescue, and more than several of our rescues were entire flocks from breeders getting out of the business, or having had their flock confiscated. I also work in avian-only veterinary medicine, and take care of breeders’ birds, should they bring them in. Maybe in your sheltered world everything is Candyland, but that’s not the reality.
Did you even read the article Patricia is writing about? It doesn’t sound like it, because Mr. Voren makes it perfectly clear his birds are there to make babies, i.e., money, and the photos make it clear that their caging is small and bare. It is so not true that parrots don’t breed under less than ideal conditions. If you knew what was going on in the world, you’d know that South African breeders are breeding wild-caught greys in sealed boxes. Yes! Sealed. No light. No toys. I’m not even sure they have perches. And guess what… it works. They breed. And don’t think that just because it’s another country we all aren’t responsible, as well. People in developing countries like the Middle East and China clamor over parrots because it’s Western. There’s a lot of parrot suffering all over the world, and it starts with us.
Most breeders in this country are not like Phoebe Greene Linden or EB Cravens. Most of them look up to breeders like Howard Voren, the “capitalist.” Most don’t vet their birds until they realize the bird is very sick, because it isn’t cost-effective. I know this from experience working in a vet’s office and working at a major rescue. Maybe your experience is different, which is nice to hear, but I’m telling you the truth. It’s a truth that so many AFA breeders refuse to acknowledge, and do nothing about. It’s more important to them to lobby against regulation that would protect parrots from those horrible breeders.
Never before have I felt so hostile toward someone on any of these parrot forums than when I read your statement, “parrots are snobs.” I shudder for your flock. I’m sure you’ll say it was a poor choice of words, but oh, how telling. Telling in that you think a complaining parrot is a snob instead of an unhappy individual, and that you don’t even recognize the difference between unhappiness and snobbery. I’m not the person here that needs a schooling, but from all my experience dealing with many breeders, they just prefer to pretend that everything is okay. Well, it’s not.
Instead of complaining that HSUS has an agenda, maybe you should take a look at your own. From what I see, your agenda is to have parrots because they make you happy. Well, my agenda is to make parrots happy. The more I deal with breeders, owners, rescues, and others involved with parrots, the more my agenda becomes putting us all out of business.
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March 28, 2013 at 10:40 pm
Shari, I agree with you in that many species will produce chicks regardless of conditions. I disagree that parrots will stop being harmed by humans if we “take ourselves out of the parrot business”.
You honestly think millions of pet parrots lead bleak, lonely lives? You think by that title alone that people wont act just as you have stated which is to divest ouselves of parrots entirely? Perhaps you are counting on the idea that if we do this, parrots in the wild will be better off? To chase off potentially awesome owners through education that will then actively participate in conservation?
Well, I am here to tell you people do not become as active and passionate about something without personal experience. Parrots will surely suffer completely if we do not remain passionate and active. Good luck being that way when all we see is a documentary of them. No pets in classrooms has happened only because of hsus. No pets in libraries. No enrichment for children is creating a uncaring and entitled society. Animals bridge the gap to bring us out of the house once in awhile. Hsus is no less than fraud and deception. I cannot believe you for one moment think otherwise.
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March 29, 2013 at 9:31 pm
Animals do bridge a gap, but are cats and dogs not enough? Why do we have to make wild animals, eg, parrots so accessible to everyone and everyone? Why are parrots so much more accessible than lions or chimps? Because they’re not dangerous, yet they are just as wild.
Honestly, I know how many parrots lead bleak and lonely lives. I see it all the time, no matter what aspect of the business I happen to be in. I also know they live very short lives. Please tell me how you can rationalize that?
Maybe HSUS is fraud and deception (your feelings), but this article is spot on. People on this thread are arguing to keep parrots because that’s what THEY want. I’m here to ask what parrots want.
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March 30, 2013 at 1:56 pm
you must be even more traveled than Patricia,,,, to “honestly know” how many parrots lead such bleak lives… please tell me,, how are my birds doing?
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March 30, 2013 at 1:57 pm
and don’t even get me started on HSUS….
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March 30, 2013 at 6:41 pm
Linnea, how well traveled do YOU say I have to be? I have worked with people in South Africa, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Pakistan India, Australia…. does that work for you?
Honestly, that’s more of an answer than your snarky comment deserves.
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March 29, 2013 at 11:26 am
I also find it disheartening that no one has anything to say about the way those conure and caique fledglings pictured in the article are housed. They don’t even seem to have room to stretch their wings.
Some of the big commercial breeders are their own worst enemies.
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March 31, 2013 at 11:42 am
Shari,,, first off, you are right, my reply was snarky, one of the things about reading blogs, or any written work, you don’t “see” the person behind it, especially if you don’t know the person, so I do apologize, your post came off to me anyway, a little too ‘know it all ish” and I responded with my gut. however, I still believe that even as well traveled as you are, there are plenty of breeders/parrot owners that you don’t know about… I believe there is room for all, 1. Conservation of wild habitat is foremost. 2. Responsible breeding: I am all for outlawing catching wild caught parrots, but this in itself will NOT stop the demand for parrots as pets. That bus left the station hundreds of years ago. 3. Responsible pet owners -, and it may be a bit of wishful thinking but I am hoping that most cases where the parrots are not kept correctly is simply a lack of education (and I am NOT talking about the extreme cases that hit the news)…
I like to think that I do right by my birds, will I stand up to everyones standards? prob not, but my birds are healthy, and apparently happy, no plucking, mutilating or screaming,, well, except for some screaming from the cockatoo but that is him,, he is healthy and happy
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March 31, 2013 at 3:20 pm
Rick V.T. As long as there are parrots needing homes, how can anyone justify or support the breeding of more for the pet trade? Easily. Not all parrots in rescues and shelters are appropriate pets…for a variety of reasons.
Beyond that, it is by captive breeding that we provide a gene pool for the future. And, when you breed for a gene pool, you do not place all the youngsters from a very productive pair into that gene pool as it would make it unbalanced for the long haul. So, what do you do with those youngsters that aren’t needed for the gene pool? You sell them to the pet trade or to a bird trainer/exhibitor…as ambassadors for their species.
For all this clamoring about over breeding, I don’t see this very basic fact being presented by those who want to stop breeding. Right now, some species are at risk of extinction in the wild and in captivity…so if that is the case, it makes sense to breed them!
Birds that are bred in captivity cannot be released into the wild…but those same birds CAN be sent to captive breeding facilities in countries of origin where their FLEDGED and EDUCATED YOUNG can be released.
This type of breeding is currently being done with the Puerto Rican parrots…in their case they are learning about hawks by sending out a youngster wearing a “hawk deterrent jacket” so that the young bird is not hurt by the hawk and the other youngsters also get to observe the hawk attack and learn about the dangers of predators. Then when these young able fledglings are ready, they are released into the wild. That is why it is important to breed parrots that are in danger of extinction.
With complex issues and important issues like the potential extinction of parrot species, there are often several options that should be under consideration IF one truly cares about the parrots. There is generally never a black and white solution…such as NO birds in captivity!
Black and white solutions do not allow for the unexpected or unintended consequences of a decision! That is why we need conservation in the wild and captive breeding in the US and other countries….to make sure we don’t eliminate options that could save birds.
Of course, this does not fit the animal rights agenda, but their agenda is not about saving birds…it is about prohibiting ownership of birds!
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April 2, 2013 at 12:53 pm
Linnea, I appreciate your response, and you’re right, I am a know-it-all; however, it doesn’t necessarily make me wrong. 😛
I don’t believe that all of our parrots are miserable, but the amount of misery that is suffered by parrots in this country and worldwide is unacceptable. Knowledge is power, and if more people see what goes on, hopefully more will get involved. Once we take our heads out of the sand and see the situation as it truly is, the more we can understand the true nature of parrots. To deny their wild nature, is the worst kind of harm.
I don’t advocate to take away companion animals, never have, but that’s the first attack by many people who are on the business end of parrots. They call you an ARF (animal rights freak/fanatic), and say you’re members of PETA and HSUS. It’s straw man argument, meant to distract us from the real issue for them: to continue earning a living.
One thing I would like to see is sensible regulation of breeding facilities and rescues of all kinds. Unfortunately, AFA spends a good deal of time fighting any sort of regulation. It’s bad for parrots, and it’s bad for people because there will be legislation; however, it will be drafted by people who nothing about parrots and their needs. That makes no sense to me at all.
There are ways to get involved, and all these groups need people and their help. Here are some on Facebook:
African Grey Action Group:
http://www.facebook.com/groups/AGAGforgreys/?ref=ts&fref=ts
Cape Parrot Project:
http://www.facebook.com/groups/capeparrotproject/?fref=ts
Speaking For Parrots:
http://www.facebook.com/groups/248605955155037/?fref=ts
Orange-bellied Parrot Project:
http://www.facebook.com/orangebelliedparrot?fref=ts
Just to name a few off the top of my head.
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April 2, 2013 at 6:35 pm
Hi Shari, I did not mean to single you out. You had made a few comments about breeders and I was simply responding. In all honesty, I think that everyone on this blog cares deeply about birds and that is a great thing. No, we do not all agree about everything and if we did… that might be rather boring.
In a recent posting, you did mention something about breeder birds being placed in a box for breeding purposes. “South African breeders are breeding wild-caught greys in sealed boxes. Yes! Sealed. No light. No toys. I’m not even sure they have perches. And guess what… it works. They breed.” My response: I have to say, if I did not know better, that visual might freak me out too. Granted I have not witnessed the actual breeding processes that are conducted in South Africa but I do believe that you described a regular breeding box which does is not actually “sealed” in but there is a lid with a hinge for human assess. There is a hole for the parent birds to enter and exit out of. These boxes were created to resemble the natural set up of a tree hollow (no light, toys…). Again, I have not physically witnessed their ways of breeding and I can only hope that they are conducting proper breeding set ups for their birds. From your description, I visualized a typical breeding box which does provide successful hatches. However, I do NOT encourage the average “Joe” to go out and attempt to have instant results. Breeding is difficult and many things go wrong in nature as well as breeding facilities. I again reiterate that if proper lighting, temperatures, humidity, nutrition, breeder box, bedding, enrichment are not met…forget it. The birds will not breed for you so don’t bother. There is a science to lighting and everything else as far as breeding goes, this is not the place to go over breeding techniques (way too many variables).
I am thankful for the breeders that do the job the right way by practicing proper husbandry, nutrition, enrichment, quarantine, socialization and take part in the prevention of species from dying out into extinction. Others may have their own opinions and they may want to see nature take its course and for species to die out; that is their opinion and they are entitled to it. I just happen to disagree, which is my own opinion. Of course, opinions are just that… opinions.
I look at the amazing work that Marc Johnson and team have done and then I wonder about the future. I fear that someone will come along and pay the government a lot of money and wipe out the entire program over an opportunity of industrialization. The humans will always come first. If a country has an opportunity for advancement, I am sure that they will accept it and that scares the heck out of me. Does that mean that I think he is wasting his time? No, of course not. All that has been accomplished is amazing and should be commended. Does that mean that it will remain intact for generations to come? I sure hope so, but we cannot really predict that.
Please do not mistake my open-mindedness as being forgiving because I would love to eliminate the “rotten” pet owners, breeders, (fake) rescues and (fake) sanctuaries with one swift blow, but somewhere along the way there were laws put into place that won’t allow that type of “quick fix” action to take place.
I am definitely not a sheltered individual but I certainly have not been exposed to the trauma that Shari and other have, and for that I am thankful. I have been reading through these posts and many others and “listen” to the messages (kind of goes along with my psychology background). This world is full of one traumatic experience after another. Traumatic experiences make it extremely difficult for people to remain open minded, forgiving and rational. Too many people have been traumatized over the years and now frown upon pet owners, pet stores, breeders, rescues, sanctuaries and even doctors. Too many people associate others with the rotten opportunistic, deceitful uneducated “others” that are out there and that sucks. Not every rescue and sanctuary is fraudulent (taking monies for their own hoarding and not doing what is best for the animals). Not every breeder is rotten and ignores the needs of their animals. Not every doctor is undereducated in the avian field. Not every pet owner is ignorant and careless. Not every pet store is out “just for the money.” There is good and bad in everything that that exists. In all honesty, like it or not, we are all in this together. One does not exist without the other. A rescue and a sanctuary exists as an extension of pet owners and/or breeders. We are all aviculturists; each and every one of us: pet owners, breeders, vets and conservation.
I have to return to the working world again and will be on the road and off line…
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March 29, 2013 at 8:05 am
Many good points, but I do have to take issue with the statements that life is difficult and wrought with peril for parrots living freely in the wild. Have you seen parrots living their natural lives? We have. We have traveled to Guyana annually to see birds living in the wild – and to share that experience with others so that they can finally understand what a parrot’s life was meant to be.
Freedom is not a hardship for these amazing animals who are well adapted for lives in the forests. Wild parrots are not dodging predators at every turn or starving to death. Nestlings, of course, face certain risks – as do all wild baby animals. But aside from the occasional eagle, parrots in the wild aren’t living in fear of predation. They stand at the tops of the tallest trees, screaming their guts out and announcing themselves to the world. They hang upside down playing. They are full of joy! Watching two macaws flying together is like a ballet – two glorious birds in perfect sync. When we are talking about threats and hardships for parrots living freely, the severity of those threats are directly linked to the level of human activity and interference present in their lives. WE are the destructive force.
Parrots are perfectly adapted to live their lives in the wild. They are NOT perfectly adapted to the tiny worlds they are forced to live in in our living rooms. In captivity their diets are not what their evolution has prepared them for, despite our best efforts. Their inability to benefit from the extraordinary cardiovascular activity that every fiber in their bodies evolved to accommodate has a devastating impact on their health. Captive breeding and the pet trade have exposed our birds to a barrage of debilitating pathogens that are killing them.
Yes – many, many people provide love and quality accommodations for their parrots. But their lives in captivity are tiny compared to the enormous lives they should have lived. Parrots sacrifice far too much to be companions to humans. I know it makes us feel better to pretend that our birds are better off in our homes than flying freely across the expansive skies and playing with joyful abandon in the tree tops…. but let’s be honest here.
Karen Windsor
Foster Parrots, Ltd.
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March 29, 2013 at 12:00 pm
Sorry, but anyone who thinks Mr. Voren is the final authority on breeding needs to do some research… and they should interview a lot more breeders to get the full picture. They aren’t all like him… the statement that “most breeders don’t vet their birds until they are very sick,” is completely misleading and false. It’s generalizations like these that hurt the entire bird-loving community. Just because there are a few greedy and uncaring people doesn’t mean everyone is, and it’s not fair to dump others down that hole. Unhealthy birds do NOT produce healthy chicks, and it’s in the interests of (most) breeders to keep their flock in good condition. All of the breeders I have ever dealt with have a regular vet on call as needed. And they spend a lot of money keeping their birds healthy.
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March 29, 2013 at 7:42 pm
Laurella, I’m not down on bird people. I’m a bird person, and most of my friends are bird people. I’ve gone over some facts, as well as other people on this forum, and no one seems to acknowledge that. I gave a link to a study that shows the stunted life span of parrots in captivity. How can a 10-year life expectancy be considered a good thing when the potential is five times that? Please comment.
There are several people here who have hands-on experience with wild parrots, and their facts are completely ignored, as well. In fact, it’s only refuted with anthropomorphic patriarchy that of course parrots must be better in captivity because we know of the dangers. Please comment.
Bergman may or may not have taken things out of context, but let’s get real. A picture is worth a thousand words, and those bare, hanging wire cages are an abomination for a companion bird. Why would we want our birds’ parents living like that? Voren states that he didn’t want Bergman to do a story on a backyard breeder that would stain the image of breeders, I gather the same breeders all you breeders deny exist. You all know that those breeders are the norm and not the exception, but maybe if you deny it long enough, you’ll get the rest of the world to believe it, too. Face it, Howard’s facility is the creme de la creme of bird breeders, and people are horrified…. well, thinking, realistic people.
I read Mr. Voren’s 15 points, and if that’s good enough for parrots, in yours and Voren’s view, then I’m speechless. Where is all the clamor about parrots needing stimulus and things to do, that they’re so intelligent they can’t just be left alone in a cage all day? Are you saying it’s okay if there’s another bird in there with them, and all they get to do is screw?
I’m not living in the fantasy that there will become a time when parrots are no longer kept as pets, and I certainly don’t condone releasing captive parrots into the wild (that’s a straw man fallacy); however, I do expect people to own up to the fact that captivity is no place for wild animals. The proof is in the parrots. Too many parrots pick, mutilate, scream, bite, isolate, and unsocialize. Other companion animals do not do this to the extent of parrots. Denying this fact about parrots is to deny them their true identities, and obscure their needs.
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March 29, 2013 at 7:48 pm
well said Shari, well said indeed…. I just wish I had the energy left to write as eloquently as you have done here.
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March 29, 2013 at 8:57 pm
Well, I visited the link you gave about the ages of parrots in captivity. I noted that this data was derived from zoos, not birds in people’s aviaries and homes. So I don’t believe the zoo data is necessarily representative of the facts, when we see 80 year old amazons and 65 year Scarlet macaws in pet situations. And, if I may say so, some zoos have NO CLUE about some parrot species in their keeping. In other cases the zoos do a great job, for example, the San Diego Zoo.
I don’t think you or I can factually state that parrots are better or worse in captivity or the wild because our information in both cases is limited. We do know that there are dangers in the wild and ongoing habitat loss. We do know that there are some abusive situations in captivity. As far as hands on experience in the wild…do you mean a visit or two to the jungle? Well, a lot of bird breeders have been there and done that…because they enjoy the birds! If you want to talk about some serious hands on, lets talk to some field biologists who spend weeks in the wild observing birds.
I am a person who likes to go with the facts and the science. The reason I started working with parrots at all was when I learned in the seventies that they were at risk of extinction. At that time I thought long and hard as to what would make a difference and proceeded to take action along those lines: educate owners, raise money for conservation and research, breed birds and make sure they are nice pets and go to good owners.
In a personal discussion with Dr. Ulysses Seal of the IUCN I asked him what he would recommend in regards to preventing the extinction of these parrots. His answer was clear and concise: “1) breed them in captivity, and 2) conserve them in the wild.” I further asked him what were the main problems preventing the success of efforts to save parrots. His answer was one word: EGO. In this he indicated that the egos of all sorts of individuals, from government officials to animal rights radicals were a problem, that the individuals with more ego than dedication to the species was a major hindrance to success in working for the birds. Now, since Dr. Seal had a life long involvement with saving species, and an international reputation for his dedication and knowledge, I think I am going to go with Dr. Seal’s approach…captive breeding and conservation in the wild.
To those two ends, I have kept detailed records on all the birds I have worked with and raised, always consulted with the top avian vets re my birds and bird health, recently put all my birds through a two year research project, and also work on a conservation project overseas. As far as educating people, Judy Keifer-Meyer and I put on six years of Avian Research Fund Seminars, including publishing the proceedings and raising $75,000 which was donated to research and conservation work.
Now when you talk about breeding birds in bare wire cages, I have to laugh. What do you think those birds want? They sure as heck don’t want a bunch of plastic toys they cannot chew. They want BRANCHES to chew, WOOD to chew. I know my birds love a nice young magnolia tree in their flight and they chew it to the ground. I am sick of this animal rights nonsense about TOYS. Breeding birds will ignore those manufactured toys till they get mold on them! Been there done that. Now, pine cones, fresh branches, hibiscus flowers, dandelion plants, all are enjoyed.
You wrote: You all know that those breeders are the norm and not the exception, but maybe if you deny it long enough, you’ll get the rest of the world to believe it, too. Face it, Howard’s facility is the creme de la creme of bird breeders, and people are horrified…. well, thinking, realistic people.end quote.
Your comment makes no sense. Howard’s facility is HIS facility and only represents his facility. There are all kinds of breeding facilities out there…including colony breeders. Breeders who have huge flights in which young birds grow up, socialize and interact. Even in the Northern US, there are breeders with indoor/outdoor aviary set ups so the birds can have shelter and can also go outside in nice flights. For some in the off breeding season, they have huge flights for the whole flock to enjoy together. Personally, I have a forty foot flight for young birds and single birds and birds off breeding season where they enjoy the sun, the rain, and chewing down the trees I put in there for them, as well as interacting if they choose.
Lets talk about birds that chew feathers…if they do not have an appropriate type of perch, they will chew feathers. Chewing flesh…feed them colored pellets and they may well chew their flesh…the dyes are irritating. Or, in the case of some birds, chewing flesh indicates a disease or condition such as giardia. Feather destruction or self mutilation are situations where veterinary intervention is needed. Dr. Clubb has written detailed information about those situations. With cockatoos, the problem may be the owner who fondles the bird day and night when it is new, then when it is older and less cuddly, there is less handling and the cockatoo is unhappy. Some owners want feathered lap dogs and that can be a problem.
So, when you have a bird with a problem, you had best be off to the vet’s for some answers. I note that my parrots do not destroy feathers UNLESS they have some kind of illness…and that is extremely rare. I do think that in the US we do not always provide the living space that birds need and some owners put birds in cages far too small. But that is a matter for education.
IMO if we do care about parrots and their future, we will do our best to educate parrot owners, to assist new breeders with factual data, to encourage the public to donate to good conservation projects, and to make sure that all rescues are following the same types of protocols as the professional breeders in terms of quarantine, vetting, housing and diet.
We may not be able to make foreign countries conserve their birds or their habitats, but we can surely put forward some effort to educate parrot owners in the US about appropriate care…and without making them feel guilty for owning a parrot.
While we are at it, if we care about all birds, we will keep cats indoors and educate others to do the same…feral cats are killing too many native birds and animals in the US and there is NO good reason to allow this to continue. IMO TNR is not the answer…instead…trap/neuter/secure works.
I think I have addressed your comments. If not, let me know!
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March 29, 2013 at 9:19 pm
A couple of great resources regarding wild bird observations, etc: Dr. Donald Brightsmith of Texas A&M. Dr. Nigel Collar of BirdLife International, Mark Stafford of Parrots International, Ryan Watson of AlWabra, to name a few. Breeders, I’d go to Wendy Craig and Laney Rickman for certain.
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March 31, 2013 at 7:41 am
I would assume that the majority of the people with strong opposing views about parrots share something in common, we all “love” parrots and want them to be “happy”. I think the disagreements arise from our perceptions, understanding, insights, observations… and our educated guesses about what is best for them.
I have met people that once supported the parrot pet trade, but over time they have grown to oppose it. Although I do not believe we could find many that once opposed the parrot pet trade that now supports it. Why is that? For me it has been in my striving to do and learn what is best for parrots that my views have evolved. I no longer believe that it is in the parrot’s best interest to continue breeding them for the pet trade. No matter how wonderful of a life we provide them in captivity it never seems to be enough. No matter how many toys we buy them, how big their cage, how much we interact with them… it never seems to be enough.
I know that there are wonderful parrot homes, people that go to great lengths to provide an amazing life for their parrots. But can we truly ever give them in captivity the life they should have… a life where they are raised by their bird parents, not humans. A life where they are free to pick mates and friends, not where they grow up with identity issues that arise from being raised by humans… a life where they are free to spend with their mates and flock, not a life where their human mate and flock spends the majority of their time away.
I have devoted many years working at several large parrot rescue/adoption facilities and have met many wonderful parrot people… I have seen firsthand the good the bad and the ugly, but I have yet to see a parrot living in captivity that has the same freedoms, choices, skills, and mental stability that those raised by their bird parents in the wild have.
Plan and simple… I want what is best for the parrots and their future. My experience continues to support that breeding and hand raising parrots for the pet trade is not in their best interest. As long as there are parrots needing homes how can anyone justify or support the breeding of more for the pet trade?
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April 2, 2013 at 9:45 am
I realize that this blog entry seems to have run its course, but I would still like to post a very powerful editorial by Gloria Ridgway of Whitewings Farm. She has since passed away, but her words still carry a very strong message about the plight of captive parrots. I hope you will take a moment to read it.
Her editorial can be read here, http://www.whitewingsfarm.com/editorial.html
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April 2, 2013 at 12:39 pm
For Pete’s sake, Laurella, you say you’re on the side of science…. only if the science agrees with you’re point of view. Show us evidence that zoos don’t know how to care for parrots. Why not ask Steve Malowski of the Cincinnati Zoo how he feels about your statement. I gave you an academic study, and we should be alarmed by it. Why not compare the amount of 40+ year-old birds to the amount that have died with a mien of 12 years. If you can’t see that, then there’s no discussion left to be had.
As far a Dr. Seal, when he says to breed them in captivity, is he talking about those species who are critically endangered, and does he mean breeding them for the pet trade? Most ornithologists and conservationists don’t believe we will save parrot species by commercial and backyard breeders breeding them for the pet trade.
As for Dr. Clubb saying that , “With cockatoos, the problem may be the owner who fondles the bird day and night when it is new, then when it is older and less cuddly, there is less handling and the cockatoo is unhappy,” it is speculation, not fact, or even a hypothesis; however, it brings up a good point. Maybe WE, humans, are not capable of giving good homes to parrots because of OUR natures. I can give you examples of mutilators who have just as much contact with their owners as they did from the start. Where do they fit in?
And for all those people who think the wild is so unsafe, where predators come and take eggs and chicks, what do you think parrot parents think when the breeder comes to take their clutch? Several times a year, they are subjected to the horror from which you want to protect them.
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April 2, 2013 at 2:17 pm
The horrors of inappropriate breeders are, well, horrific. Removing babies must be traumatic to the parents, but I don’t know. I do know that parrots lose babies in the wild just as much if not more. So, I know they are also resilient in that sense. Raising parrots solely on people has shown clear behavioral issues as these babies don’t know, really, how to be birds and are trying to be people who are not people, they are birds. (My nanday is a fine example of this as he was initially afraid of all birds and only wanting people but does just fine in most human situations that I can discern).
Breeders who use no enrichment for the parents, awful. People who dump parrots because they are “inconvenient” flat out suck. People will “dump” a great deal more parrots with this article’s title. That flat out sucks. People who don’t take the time to learn more about themselves and at least try their best to improve themselves and the people around them instead of pointing fingers flat out suck.
The breeders who are turning a new leaf in the trade are who we should support and we should learn who they are. Breeders who provide enrichment, education, resist selling to “just anyone for a price”, who even go as far as co-parenting. Breeders like Laney Rickman and Wendy Craig, and even to the breeder who sold me my nanday and resisted selling to a college student are three of whom I fully support and adore to it’s fullest.
That breeder who sold me my nanday thrust me into the world of parrots through education about them. I did not know half as much about parrots until they showed me the light and started me on my current path. We will not have this encounter ever for someone else if we cease what we are currently doing completely. Laney and Wendy allow the parents to raise the chicks and FLEDGE THEM. But, they will not be able to do their work if we BAN IT ALTOGETHER as is proposed by HSUS.
Don’t forget, this article is about banning altogether and removing all parrots from the face of the general public because of the source of the article alone–HSUS. I enjoyed reading the article and it had great points. But, I have to always remember and remind myself the SOURCE-HSUS. They suck. HSUS’s ultimate goal is not humanitarian nor helpful for animals’ welfare at all. It is to remove and divest us of having animals at all. They will never say this nor admit this, but their actions clearly point in that direction. From the directors I have directly talked to, the general feeling of Wayne is that people can care about something solely by seeing them on Nat Geo. Do you feel that is the way we can get people to be activists like we are? Really? I don’t think so.
I even caught Naomi Rose, Marine Mammal Director of HSUS, in a lie. She said the only reason why she was an activist and Director of HSUS was because she cared about marine mammals from videos. From a video she saw. I said I did not agree. To make a long story short, I got her to admit that once, and it only takes once, when she was 7 years old, she was picked in front of an audience at a dolphin show to play with a pirate. She said she only remembered the pirate, but I pointed out she was picked out at a dolphin show and now she is a dolphin advocate. In the meantime, I never went to the show and stayed at petting tanks to play with the dolphins and that made me a dolphin advocate.
HSUS needs no less than to be taken down and destroyed. I’m so angry at them I could spit. Children are not developing any form of caring in classrooms. Budgets are so degraded that all they are allowed to learn are things that do not encourage creativity, logic, discussion or more. Instead, they are force fed numbers, letters, math, writing, “science” and even misinformation as truths all to be accounted for through testing only. AWFUL and also flat out sucks and I’m tired of seeing so much crap out there taking the money from these kids.
They took animals out of schools long ago. The only entity who did that was the lobbyists of HSUS in our government. This entire article and debate is going to ruin the entire idea of having people care about anything and instead tear each other apart. Look at how successful HSUS is. Look at what we are currently writing to each other. Does this make anyone feel better? Cuz I know I feel like crap. Save a parrot by working together to make education better, improve breeding conditions, improve second home conditions, create programs that do not allow just anyone to create a rescue and for that rescue to be upheld to at least the basic conditions to not become the horrific hoarders that are glorified on TV. I’m sick of it.
Parrots in the wild have no chance at all if we destroy all the parrots we have in captivity by encouraging bans. Bans are not entirely helpful. Look at African Greys. Hundreds of thousands for Asia now. Good luck getting Asia on board in bans. So, instead of removing live birds from Africa, they are removing Greys in body bags and parts. Africa does not care because we don’t care enough about Africa. We don’t care enough about Africa because we have not been to Africa. Africa needs freakin’ help and much, much more than anywhere else in the world. S. America is so much better than Africa I could spit. So, why aren’t we helping the Greys? Does anyone even know Nigel Collar? That he begged the community (professionals, NGO’s, governments and more) to help Greys and only one person stepped forward to face the guns of a violent community that does not care? Are you willing to do that? Well, if you don’t experience a parrot first hand, there is no way you are going to. We need more Diane Fossey’s of the parrot world to literally put their life on the line. I know of someone here in Seattle who wants to go to Africa, what about you, Marc? Willing to go help kids there because that is where the help is needed! Guyana is a wonderful paradise by comparison. Go to Africa and help those kids and maybe I’ll help you then monetarily.
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April 2, 2013 at 3:41 pm
Seriously Debbie? You don’t like where I have chosen to focus our conservation program? I am not sure it is of any use debating anything with you Debbie. Most of what you have said in your post above not only makes very little, if any, sense but it seriously damages and undermines the credibility of “your side’s” argument.
As for HSUS, you can go on spouting the same old propaganda and for sure, there are many out there who if they hear something over and over will believe ANYTHING but the HSUS is doing a great job on the legislative front and they do have sanctuaries and direct care facilities that do great work. There is no evidence whatsoever that the HSUS is out to rid us of the ability to share our lives with animal companions such as those domesticated for such lives, i.e. dogs and cats.
I would agree with Laurella though, cats are devastating the wild bird populations and ALL cats should be kept indoors. I have two adopted cats who have 3500 sq feet to patrol, all indoors and they are very happy. Like the considerations needed before taking any animal into our care, the ability to properly care for cats should be carefully weighed before taking one in as a companion. (Just as one living in a small apartment should not take in a large dog with high exercise needs, Ausie Shepard for example).
If one applies this same logic to parrots as pets nobody, if properly informed of the care requirements, would subject a flighted animal to such an inadequate life. In fact, if one were to apply the same standards of care given to parrots to any other companion animal I suspect one would be subject to arrest for cruelty….
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April 2, 2013 at 4:15 pm
I did not say you are doing a bad job where you are focusing your project. Daresay, I said awesome work there. Guyana needs help, but Africa more so.
HSUS does not have anything to do with actual welfare societies under the name Humane Society. Anything that is HUMANE SOCIETY is merely local welfare society and has nothing to do nor do they receive any money from the HSUS lobby. Ask any humane society out there if they get HSUS money or assistance. They don’t unless they get lots of fame for a special case. The day to day needs of helpless dogs and cats is not at all helped by HSUS.
Then, let’s delve into why we domesticated animals at all? Because in your argument, it’s not okay to have wild animals, but our domesticated animals were wild. They came from wild stock. So, really, humans just should not have animals if they can’t have parrots either because, frankly, we dont know how to care for them, according to you. I mean, look at the child abuse, spousal abuse, dog abuse and absurd cat problem that everyone thinks is fine to let the cat outside. If we can’t have a wild parrot because we lack the ability to care for them, then we should equally not have dogs and cats. Really, children, too. But, good luck with that.
If you read the title of this article, “Millions of pet parrots lead bleak, lonely lives.” with a picture directly below of a plucking African Grey parrot, how is that going to make you feel? Again, you are attacking me which is what HSUS wants. I’m not attacking you, I’m suggesting for you to go further with your work you’ve started and move to areas that are far more desperate in Africa.
You have obviously much more passion than I, funds, and time. The ability to go to Guyana. I don’t have money to even drive around much less to travel anywhere. So, I hope you use your passion for the best possible purpose.
In fact, I’d like you personally to come out to Seattle and pitch your Guyana project to children at our annual conference that we are initiating this year to help parrots and people worldwide: http://www.flight-club-foundation.org. Our primary fundraiser is Susan Friedman’s LLA Workshop. Please come, be there and teach children. Meet me personally and see that we are not on OPPOSITE “sides” so much as the same. Minus one. You think we should have no parrots here ever again and I disagree.
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April 2, 2013 at 5:10 pm
To Shari…you wrote: For Petes sake, Laurella, you say youre on the side of science. only if the science agrees with youre point of view. Show us evidence that zoos dont know how to care for parrots. Why not ask Steve Malowski of the Cincinnati Zoo how he feels about your statement. I gave you an academic study, and we should be alarmed by it. Why not compare the amount of 40+ year-old birds to the amount that have died with a mien of 12 years. If you cant see that, then theres no discussion left to be had. end quote.
I made the very simple point that this was an academic study of the known life span of parrots in zoo situations. I also made the simple point that not all parrots in zoo situations are kept under the best of conditions. Additionally I said that SOME zoos were doing a fabulous job…and I have seen their facilities and they are indeed quite admirable for parrots.
My point was that while this life span study of parrots in zoos was fine…it did not represent the situation in the private sector and could not be expected to do so. This does not discredit the numbers in the zoo study, it simply points out that the population was a limited population, and not necessarily a representative population of parrots in the USA.
On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 5:15 PM, Parrot Nati
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April 2, 2013 at 5:20 pm
Right. On. Deb. And anyone who does a small amount of fact and record checking should arrive at the same conclusion about HSUS. More education is needed, not less people who truly do care for their animals and the animals’ future in the wild.
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April 2, 2013 at 5:28 pm
Debbie, have you ever been to South America?
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April 2, 2013 at 6:42 pm
Yes I have. Not long enough. Lots of mange in dogs, people starving, but resilient people who will care given the right direction. I mean, look at what Marc accomplished in Guyana. Look at what the Spix Macaw project has done. Look at what ARA project is doing. Don’t agree with all of it, but it’s okay, they are trying and that is what matters. I know and have met Stewart Metz of IPP, met and helped Dr. Donald Brightsmith with literary searches on Flexuosa palms. Have not been to Africa yet. WOULD LOVE TO GO THERE if someone could sponsor me:) Ya right. We need to help African Greys, Cape parrots (who are dying of PBFD), Poicephalus and more. Human rights in Africa are awful. Bushmeat trade completely out of control. Professionals enduring watching it all cringing saying and yelling loudly how we are not doing enough but don’t know how to do enough. (Joel Sartore, Nat Geo photographer talk on Mar 27th)
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April 2, 2013 at 7:47 pm
To all. A previous post stated, quote: In a recent posting, you did mention something about breeder birds being placed in a box for breeding purposes. “South African breeders are breeding wild-caught greys in sealed boxes. Yes! Sealed. No light. No toys. I’m not even sure they have perches. And guess what… it works. They breed.” My response: I have to say, if I did not know better, that visual might freak me out too. Granted I have not witnessed the actual breeding processes that are conducted in South Africa but I do believe that you described a regular breeding box which does is not actually “sealed” in but there is a lid with a hinge for human assess. There is a hole for the parent birds to enter and exit out of. These boxes were created to resemble the natural set up of a tree hollow (no light, toys…). end quote
There are plenty of well informed very experienced professional bird breeders in South Africa. They have bird societies, they have publications…and they are active in working for the welfare of birds! They are in contact with European breeders. These are the people who raised many hundreds of young parrots which were then exported to the USA for many years, up until 1992. Species included budgies and cockatiels and African greys and eclectus parrots!!!
If someone has no clue about wild caught African greys and their behavior in a captive situation, that person might ASSUME that those greys are forced to stay in the nestboxes! The truth is that wild caught greys, males and females, will go into the nestboxes to hide whenever any human appears on the scene!
Now, anyone who actually believes that a pair of greys is going to eat, sleep, defecate, mate, lay eggs, and raise young in an enclosed sealed box has to be completely illiterate about parrot breeding, or they have an animal rights mentality which facilitates ignoring common sense and the realities of basic parrot breeding practices.
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April 2, 2013 at 10:00 pm
Debbie, they don’t lose that many chicks in the wild. If they did, there wouldn’t be any parrots. The main places where routine predation of nest holes occurs are islands where cats and rats have been introduced.
But that’s not really what this is about. It’s about the trauma of losing chicks and eggs that was brought up by breeders trying to make the point of the trauma of living in the wild. Either it’s traumatic for them in the wild and at the breeders, or it’s not. You can’t have it both ways.
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April 2, 2013 at 10:46 pm
Shari, they do lose that many chicks in the wild. Enough to keep populations low relatively. We rarely see populations of parrots in the millions, for example. Even African Greys, when they were not poached as badly were maybe a couple of million at their peak, but not any more. Especially when estimates are about 200K to 300K removed a year despite bans in US and EU. Out of the number of eggs laid/hatch that is low. Then hatch to fledge is low, at least with the larger species–sometimes a pair having no successful chicks at all for that reproductive year. The smaller species are more gregarious and lay larger clutches to keep populations going, but they are preyed upon as adults more often as well. That is why populations don’t explode (say from 12 birds to 70 birds the next year to 350 yet the next if everyone survived in a clutch of 5 for example) even when they are “protected” by scientific groups. Take the Puerto Rican Parrot. From about 22 birds in the wild, there are now about 400 birds over 20 years or more. If chicks were not preyed upon by disease, predator and lack of adequate forest (due to us using the good forest and forcing the birds into the mountains that are the hardest hit by hurricanes), their numbers would be much higher. Even with supplemental feedings, chicks must endure a lot and more often than naught don’t survive. Let me find that data that supports this. I know I’ve read it in a bunches of places but can’t remember specific sites, references and sources that I have gleaned over the years right now. I believe TRC has some good data on it.
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April 2, 2013 at 10:57 pm
Debbie, you’re talking about a narrow range of parrot species, mainly ones that are already in real peril. Spix’s macaw always had a small range, so they only had a small population. If you have a small range, you can’t overpopulate it, as there won’t be enough food to support it. This is not the case for a large number of species.
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April 2, 2013 at 11:19 pm
Name me a species of parrot that you know of in the millions of birds. That is what I’m talking about. Parrots are altricial birds meaning they have high parental investment, so their fecundity is lower than other species of birds who must maintain a higher rate of reproduction in order to work with predation pressure. Some with only one parent to raise and even then for a short time, causing the chick to be less helpless upon hatching. Parrots are completely helpless upon hatching and entirely depend on the adults to protect them.
You add us to the picture of parrots since parrots often live where we want to live and you have population decimation because of their dependance on current condition. Given parrots are adaptable, they survive to keep their numbers going, but certainly not in the millions as may have been before our time.
It is a scientific fact that speciation of parrots is significantly declining despite an Order that is millions of years old. A part of that is the fact that chick success is quite low. Not so low that all parrots are doomed. But low enough to cause many to be listed as endangered even though their population currently “seems stable”. So, as stated, we are talking all species of large macaws are this way. Not one of the large macaws is not on the endangered species list.
As far as smaller species of parrot, it is much more varied, but given their reproductive strategy, their number of chicks is lower given the higher cost of the parents to raise their young. That is called Behavioral Evolution. You can read about it in the book, “Social Evolution” by Robert Trivers. Most Animal Behavior texts also cite the cost and benefit analysis of various reproductive strategies of animals and their success for future generations.
In addition, ecosystem support is our fundamental crisis across the globe. Not just for naturally-occurring species but for us as well. So, right now, the basics holding parrots back and reducing chick success are lack of good nest sites and lack of good food availability.
Please keep in perspective the crisis that is happening to wild parrots as a whole. As an ORDER of over 350 birds, 30% of the entire global population of parrots (Order Psitticaformes) are extinct, critically endangered and at least listed on the endangered species list. A good chunk of them are not because of depopulation for the pet trade (unlike the Spix became and the Grey is becoming). A good chunk is environmental devastation.
Therefore, if we save a parrot, no matter where that parrot is, we will ultimately save ourselves. Which is why parrots are such fundamental icons that we are completely missing out on using to protect all of us. Perhaps it is the iconic, intelligent, language-base, long lived, color-varied parrot that will save us all. It’s entirely up to us to work together to realize what we are really losing when we lose the next species.
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April 2, 2013 at 11:31 pm
Parrot populations evolved with the environment. Success as species never required them to number in the millions. Their lower numbers are what their habitat can sustain. They never needed to be in the millions, so they have few breeding seasons or lay large clutches.
But the real point here which has been obfuscated is that if people are saying loss of offspring is proof that the wild is a horrible and traumatic place from which parrots need to be saved, how can we defend breeders from taking their birds’ clutches? Breeder birds are forced into extra breeding seasons, and double-clutching, probably exposing them to 2 or 3 times more to this trauma.
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April 3, 2013 at 12:01 am
Ok, now I see your point, Shari. Let’s make sure I do. What you are saying is that we cannot say that wild birds need to be saved from that to which they evolved in. I agree there. In addition, I agree that breeders who do not follow the natural cycle of a parrot should be no less than shot vs. forcing double clutching, etc. Learning more about natural cycles of parrot breeding will do us all big favors and we don’t need that many birds out there to supply the dwindling demand. Then, let’s hope we can direct the demand to breeders who do things right. That is my point.
Also, as far as comparison to the wild. People often think the wild is the ultimately best place for them when in actuality, it’s very hard without much in the way of positive outcome. Flight is required vs. “just being useful and fun to use and shouting out with love and empowerment”. We are trying to paint a picture of reality in the wild. But people think the wild is so idyllic when it is not.
Minus that is where they came from. But it’s not the same because we have consumed too much and have destroyed most natural checks and balances that used to be in place.
We are trying to candidly point out to people that just because a parrot evolved out there does not mean that parrots should never have been with us and should not be with us now. There are many reasons man chose parrots and parrots choose man when man does not predate them but instead supplements them. (As in the case of the chico release in 1994). All wild parrots who have been exposed to positive human interaction develop a lack of fear of them, which is “not natural” since we are top predators. (the Guyana case with Marc that he pointed out as well) In addition, they seek refuge with humans when injured. They feed inside of buildings, off feeders when they become feral in the US. They do not do well in feral US populations outside of human influence. They only thrive in urban environments where humans supplement them. Ask City Parrots about this and the Texas Parrot Project as well.
Patricia’s point in that we are constantly striving to make parrot accomodations more like the wild for them. It’s good and bad. They are not from the wild, nor in the wild. I look at it like the movie Rio. Blu wants his bell and his cage and Jewel wanted to get the heck away from all people. Parrotscan accomodate to varied environments. It has been proven with their evolution. So, if we just leave them to their current process, which is what is being proposed here, without any internal breeding for anyone, which is the goal of HSUS, then we could lose out on all.
What Patricia was trying to point out to people and the point I was trying to make as well is that the wild is not necessarily any more ideal than the person taking the chicks minus that is what they were evolved to do. Therefore, if they were evolved to accept chick loss, then losing a chick to a human taking them from the nest is no different. A chick is lost regardless. Because there are similiarities, we cannot truly defend against the removal of chicks by a breeder.
Additionally, what the parrots evolved in and continue to evolve in is no longer only under the direct influence of natural process. Now more than ever we control nearly every element on the land and the Order is not coping well with this. Therefore, we remove the ability to breed in captivity at all, we could very well lose many more species. If that is the way it is naturally supposed to go, then be it. Personally, I say its entirely our fault and we need to fix it. We have what we have where we have it and we will ultimately be the ones to move forward or not. I hope the decision in this debate is to keep parrots around us as we need to learn a lot more about them than we currently know.
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April 3, 2013 at 12:21 am
OK, if you’ve been to South America, I really don’t understand why you attacked Mark for working in Guyana instead of Africa. On paper, most South American countries have higher standards of living (on average) than most African countries, but there are still places in South America where extreme poverty exists and there are a lot of endangered species in South America.
People trying to help people and animals anywhere in the World should be encouraged, not criticized for not being in the right location.
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April 3, 2013 at 12:39 am
Thanks for your concern, Jessie, and please do not take what I said to Mark as an attack on what he is doing in Guyana. I have openly now stated this several times that what he is doing there sounds great. What I have asked him to do is progress his movement and open avenues to Africa. Africa is much worse off and needs much more attention than it is receiving. Mark was lamenting no one was supporting his work in Guyana. Obviously someone is because he is there and making a difference. I support so many projects I have lost count. Mark’s is not one of them but I would support him should he decide to venture into Africa.
I am critizing Mark himself for being so staunch about having parrots living with us at all. It is clear he completely disagrees we need them here with people. It is that I have a problem with. He would not be in Guyana were it not for the parrots he has learned from. We still yet have a long journey ahead of us to learn more about them and a part of that is having them with us.
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April 2, 2013 at 10:09 pm
Laurella, you need to reread what you wrote. You also need to figure out the difference between what you think is factual, and what really is factual. Factual would be something that says the study on longevity doesn’t apply to most captive parrots. Some factual reason, or even a hypothesis. Something with the word “because.”
I’d like to say that I believe the people posting to this thread all have more than a basic knowledge of parrots, and understand things like nest boxes. If only I had reason to believe that I get the same respect. It would be so much easier to disregard anything I had to say if you just keep making unsupported assertions, flippant remarks, digs, and bought into the propaganda of AFA that people like me are “evil” and stricken with “mental illness.”
Here’s your nestbox:
http://www.facebook.com/groups/AGAGforgreys/permalink/375056412535088/
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April 2, 2013 at 10:47 pm
I am sorry but a zoo life span study is just that and nothing more and that is a fact. If you want to quote a study on a specific population, fine, but that does not automatically compare to a separate population kept under different conditions.
Recently on an Australian site, the published information was that HALF of the fledged young galahs do not make it to year one. The site did not indicate the manner in which they acquired the data.
And, I have not made any flippant remarks or digs that I am aware of.
I am interested in factual material and do not find flippant remarks to be of much assistance in that regard.
As for as the nestbox issue, that person appears to be a very small time breeder who has some idiosyncratic ideas about greys which certainly the average S.African bird breeder does not follow. If the guy is trying to sell the pairs…what does that tell you? Most people with productive breeding pairs do not sell them. This person is certainly not the norm and I would not consider his facility to be representative of the average breeder in S.Africa.
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April 2, 2013 at 11:04 pm
At first, Laurella, you didn’t even believe those South African breeders existed. When the proof was there for you to see, you make a flippant remark, “This person is certainly not the norm and I would not consider his facility to be representative of the average breeder in S.Africa.”
Seriously, does it have to be the norm before you become outraged?
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April 2, 2013 at 11:16 pm
Are you kidding? There are a lot of things to be outraged about and if I spent my day outraged, I would not have time to do anything else! LOL. This S. African “breeder” is trying to sell his pairs…Well, one has to wonder why? Is it perhaps that he is NOT being very successful with his clever idea? Now, there are a lot of egomaniacs out there in every activity, but that does not equate to success and in this case, no wonder the guy is trying to sell pairs!
My point was simple. No breeder in their right mind who had any knowledge of parrots would attempt such a ridiculous set up for breeding any kind of parrot! It seems to me that this person is not in his right mind or he is very stupid.
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April 6, 2013 at 4:06 pm
I’ll bet if you asked a well-cared-for slave or prisoner which he would prefer – having all his needs taken care of or freedom, you’d have his answer. We’re morally obligated to care for the birds that are here already, but that doesn’t mean we should bring more birds into this world to be cared for as prisoners. Remember that this same argument was used by slave owners in our not-to-distant past. It’s a very paternalistic approach. Those people reading and writing these posts are likely taking wonderful care of their birds, but the fact remains the majority of bird owners do not, and we have an obligation to those birds, as well.
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