Best Friends Animal Society recently uploaded a video on Youtube featuring my friend Wendy, a caregiver at the BF Parrot Garden. It is a beautiful video and makes some clear-cut statements about their take on the state of the parrot population:
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Patricia Sund
Parrot Nation 
October 12, 2011 at 2:01 pm
I am very disappointed that you would support this opinion.
1. Clipping wings is not mutiliation – they grow back just like hair does. It it’s not necessary to clip to keep a bird as a pet, there are many unclipped pet birds.
2. Birds don’t commonly live upwards of 80 to 100 years. Some of the large parrots, in captivity, have a life expectancy of 70 years. This means that some can live longer, but most don’t. In the wild birds live much shorter lives. All long-lived creatures are adaptable, it’s what allows them to develop long life spans.
3. Breeders don’t have “just a box and a perch if they are lucky”. That is a complete misrepresentation of breeding birds. Most breeding birds live in large flights, the breeding box is available on the cage for them to go in and breed when they are secure and ready to do that. They aren’t locked in them, they aren’t forced into them. In nature most of them breed inside tree hollows and the box is there to simulate that for the birds and encourage them to want to breed.
4. Breeders do sell their birds and yes, they are expensive. They are also expensive for the breeder to buy and maintain. Many people wait years for babies that never come. If they didn’t love birds, they would put their money and their time in another business and make more money. Breeders love birds, most are very passionate about them, and actually are less demanding than the average pet owner. They are happy with birds being birds and don’t feel compelled to hold them or have them talk. They are happy to provide them with a mate and a comfortable environment and for most, babies are a bonus.
Misrepresentations like this are why people who share a passion for birds are not able to work together for their common good. The end result is likely to be the total extinction of parrots in the next 200 years. If you are comfortable with that, then continue to support people who are working toward that end.
Charles Darwin said: “It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.”
Birds are adapting to lives in the living room, we can either support them and help them to adapt or we can close them out, watch their habitat disappear and watch them become extinct.
Jamie Whittaker
ABC Birds
Humble, Texas
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October 26, 2011 at 11:11 pm
I’m not going to say that wing-clipping is akin to mutilation, because the strict definition would imply a permanent condition. I don’t clip my birds’ wing feathers, but I do clip others.’ In fact, when I walk into someone’s house who’s running several ceiling fans, I can’t wait to get my scissors on the birds. I’m not going to stand on this principle when the life of a bird is at risk.
But let’s face it…. most parrots do not reach old age, because of the conditions of captivity. They are biologically ill-equipped to deal with the bacteria found in all homes. After a time, these bacteria take a hold of the major organs. And if that doesn’t lead them to an untimely death, than conditions such as gout, liver problems, and the like, will. Getting a medium- to large-sized parrot into its twenties is a feat in itself.
Meanwhile, if we just stop arguing amongst ourselves, and listen to what the parrots are telling us, we’d also see that captivity is incompatible with the parrot psyche. I no longer look at a naked parrot and think, “I wonder what this parrot’s person is doing…. or not doing.” I see far too many people doing all the “right” things that they’ve been told to do by all the “experts.” Well, there are still the same amount of the true mutilation that goes on in the lives of parrots, as there were in the bad ol’ days.
I don’t agree that this is why bird people can’t work together…. I just think they don’t want to. I’m a member of the AFA (a little bit of lapse, tho) and the last two issues of the Watchbird I read said some really nasty things about people like me who believe parrots need more protection in captivity; however, I still extend my welcome, have friends who are breeders, and partake in activities that celebrate both breeding and rescue. Both are a fact of life in the parrot world, and if people are going to take the bite personally, there will never be any growth.
Shari Mirojnick
Avian Veterinary Technician
Parrot Advocate
All-around Dork
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August 7, 2012 at 11:34 am
Why do people breed parrots? Is it for their sake or the sake of the parrot? My guess is that it is NOT for the parrots sake. Extinction maybe? I believe not. Here’s why not….. if it is all about extintion, why not raise a little pet rhino in your back yard. To safe animals from extintion is not to domesticate them. How will they thrive in the wild or are they now made for domestic use? Of course there are breeders who care……… but most don’t. Still the question remains, why do you want to breed animals who clearly belong in the wild and outlive their keeper? Make no sense to me.
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October 12, 2011 at 2:26 pm
Hi Jamie,
I didn’t approve it. And I don’t support it. I never said that I did.
I merely posted it. If I hadn’t posted it, you would not have had the opportunity to say what you said. I actually disagree with much of what Wendy said. I am here to make sure that people such as you see what is being put out there and to ensure that you have a platform as well.
Jamie, you got your words across. That is important. I agree more with what you said than what was in the video. I have every intention of getting in touch with Jacque at Best Friends and have them correct the video because it’s incorrect in many ways. I hope they clear up what they mean because I truly don’t think that what was said was what they meant.
I have to post things I don’t like. If anything, I’m fair. If BF stands by this video, then fine. I personally don’t agree with many things Wendy said. I’ve met Wendy and I think she didn’t say what she meant. But if BF wants to put this up then fine. This is their statement
This blog isn’t about what I like or don’t like. It’s about the state of the “Parrot Nation” as I refer to it. The blog is about the people and the birds. Everyone has their opinion and it’s important that this be a platform for all aspects.
Thanks so much for your well-written response and great rebuttal. Well done, Jamie. You explained yourself very well.
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October 13, 2011 at 1:43 pm
Perhaps some of the video didn’t correctly portray breeders, but I’m sure there are bird mills, and like puppy and kitten mills, they are probably atrocious living conditions for the birds. But she’s right on one point: Rescues and sanctuaries that I’ve looked at online are full to the gills with some common birds- cockatoos, macaws, amazons. How can any breeder of these birds know about the supply of homeless birds and still insist they do it for the love of birds? It can only be for money.
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October 13, 2011 at 5:40 pm
@Sherrie
The video does not correctly portray breeders at all. Birds don’t breed in atrocious living conditions. They are not like cats and dogs.
Rescues are full because they choose to be. There are many homes out there for birds, you have to be committed to finding them and to helping them to be good homes.
Birds are not homeless because there are too many of them. Birds are homeless because they have not been matched with their right home yet. It’s easier to raise money on people’s emotions than to represent things fairly.
If it were that lucrative a lot of people would want to to do it, breeders are quitting and retiring and there are very few young people stepping up to take over.
Jamie
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October 26, 2011 at 11:13 pm
“Birds are homeless because they have not been matched with their right home yet. ”
Erm…. whose fault is that?
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October 13, 2011 at 9:53 pm
The video was SPOT ON when it described breeders. Maybe there’s a handful of “backyard” breeders who fit your description, Jamie. But most commercial breeders can’t afford to give them large cages, toys, and (gawd forbid) appropriate perches and even a good diet. It’s a matter of how many and how fast they can reproduce, and get as many babies out of them as possible before throwing them into a financially strapped sanctuary.
And yes, birds are homeless in large part because there are too many of them. Breeders pump out close to two million birds a year and ten percent end up being relinquished for various reasons. That’s 200,000 birds a year!
Some breeder told me not too long ago that the public can “absorb” those 200,000 birds but that’s obviously not happening. Every single rescue I know is beyond capacity. Every one of them. Hmmmm so where are THOSE birds all coming from? Santa Claus? The Easter Bunny? The most relinquished species are the umbrella cockatoo and the blue and gold macaw. Yet, breeders are still pumping them out by the boatload. Every newbie wants a baby bird, so the breeders saturate that market. And a few years later, when the bird is no longer a baby, off it goes.
Patricia, I am extremely disappointed in your response to Jamie’s comments. Obviously this is a dark side of aviculture in which you still need to be educated.
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October 13, 2011 at 11:03 pm
Ellen, if you want to email me I am more than happy to start a dialogue with you. I have rehomed many birds in the last 20+ years and many of my very best friends are breeders (more than a handful).
You said ” But most commercial breeders can’t afford to give them large cages, toys, and (gawd forbid) appropriate perches and even a good diet. ”
Where do you get that information? The large breeders that I know have their birds in cages that are at least 4′-16′ long depending on species. This is much larger than cages in the average living room. And it may surprise you to know that many large breeders feed optimal diets to their birds for 2 reasons- 1. they love birds and want their birds to be healthy 2. Healthy birds have healthy babies and live longer. It’s true that some breeders consider manmade toys to be dangerous, and in many cases they are right. They also look for natural and safe alternatives that may not look pretty to us, but is stimulating to the birds.
You asked “Every single rescue I know is beyond capacity. Every one of them. Hmmmm so where are THOSE birds all coming from? Santa Claus?”
Those birds came from breeders as did the ones that are happily living in families. Why did they end up in rescues? In many cases (especially with cockatoos) it’s because the new owners tried to treat the bird like a child or a dog and taught the bird behaviors that made it impossible to live with. Then, when they looked for advice on the internet, they were told that it was because the bird was raised by a production breeder. They anthropomorphize birds instead of letting them be birds. They make up answers to their problems based on what they know about dogs and what makes them feel good. They are often misguided and the end result is a toxic relationship between them and the bird. I have successfully re-homed many of those birds. I tell people every day that there is no benefit to getting a baby and I believe that.
We may never completely agree, but we can find common ground. We both love birds and care about their futures and that should allow us to be able to talk, reasonably, about the future.
Jamie
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October 13, 2011 at 10:09 pm
What part of shining a light on it it did you disapprove of? I gave Jamie her platform.I don’t agree with what Wendy said simply because I don’t agree that clipping is “mutilation.” Jamie has an opinion. You have yours.
I am aware of the dark side. I know about it. I don’t like it. At the same time this blog is about the “State of the Nation.” It’s not about what I prefer. It’s about getting opinions and points of view out.
I’m sorry I disappointed you. But I have to be realistic and let people know what people think. From all sides. I don’t want to censor.
This blog is not about “creating opinion.” It’s about getting people to think. And in order to get them to do so is to present ways of thinking they might not have thought about before, Even if they don’t agree with it.
This is a journey for me. And I want people to come along with it. Add to it. I can’t just exclude a huge part of the industry just because I don’t like it. It’s all about learning for me. That’s what I’m doing. I’m sorry you’re uncomfortable with that, but I have to learn as I go. I don’t know half of what I need to know. And that’s why I’m doing what i do. I am traveling hopefully to learn as I go. And this is one way of doing it.
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October 14, 2011 at 11:09 am
Hi Everybody, surprised to see me here? No, I didn’t think so. Well, what I have to say might make everybody mad but that is how I judge myself to be “in the middle”….
First, we have been traveling down the road that this video from Best Friends describes for almost 12 years now and guess what…. nothing has really changed. Everything that parrot rescues say is disputed by the breeding community and everything the breeding community says is… well you know….
What we have ended up with is a mirror of our political system now. We have become so polarized that all anyone feels is hatred towards the other side and there have been no attempts to work together to make life better for the parrots in captivity who desperately need all of us. One attempt was made by Dr. Stewart Metz back in 2002 or so with the WPWA (World Parrot Welfare Association I believe) which I certainly was not ready for back then. I wanted to rip the throat out of the breeding community and was not willing to compromise one inch in the belief that I could change the world in a day, a month, a year. Where did that get me, Foster Parrots or the parrot community? For openers, the very people and organizations we had hoped would join our cause seem to have waited for 12 years to join the effort. Don’t get me wrong, I am grateful that somebody has joined our effort but now that I am exhausted and near death (well, it feels like it….) I have started to wonder if a different approach might be called for.
Well, I have changed and I now believe that, if humans survive, parrots will be with us for a million years as pets. Would I have liked otherwise, sure. I will never stop thinking, in the words of Liz and Bob Johnson, that “Someday, in a more enlightened age, the practice of confining any bird to a life limited to the synthetic environment of a cage will be viewed as morally and ethically unthinkable…” And I will always work to help others see just that. But this is a fight that will be played out far after I have left this earth.
So, what now? How do we move forward for the benefit of the parrots? How do we find the common ground upon which we can all agree that we all have something to offer? Is this even possible? I am not sure, but I am willing to start the process of looking. This will, no doubt anger many people who still feel that a “take no prisoners” approach is the only way and there will be others in the breeding community who will not want to “cavort with their [perceived] enemy” but if we all truly have the interests of the parrots NOW in captivity we must allow each side to hold their views, no matter how radical they may seem to the other side, and know that they are only views, not revolvers.
One issue we all agree on is that more education is the key. The AR/AW side would say that the more the average person thinking of getting a parrot knows the more likely they are to choose a gold fish, dog or cat. The message is getting out there. I believe that it is because of the efforts of those in animal welfare and this message that it has actually gotten harder for us (at Foster Parrots) to find good, quality adoptive homes for the overwhelming numbers of birds needing re homing. The “Mom and Pop” breeding community would argue that their educational message will also result in a better educated and therefore better prepared home for a parrot purchased from them. Both are right but both offer a different long range prediction for any parrot that is taken in as a pet. Those are, perhaps, the details that we will all have to agree to disagree on knowing that education is one of the common areas we can agree on and that there are ways that all of us can work together to make a difference in the lives of the parrots now living in our homes or those hoping to find a home that will care for them with a quality of life they deserve.
Perhaps another area we can all agree on is the need to rid the planet of any breeding facility that even slightly resembles a breeding mill? Those who think of themselves as “good breeders” would probably love to see the high production facilities, where a perch is considered enrichment, closed down. Without these mass produced parrots perhaps the prices would then rise which would then have the effect of making the “impulse” purchase less likely which would then have the effect of keeping a parrot in the home more likely? Perhaps?
These are just two examples of how we could make life better for parrots as pets if we stop throwing mud at each other and start working together. The answers are not in the past, the good old days that so many “old timers” pine for were not so good. We still have much to learn.
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October 14, 2011 at 11:45 am
It’s wonderful that you are interested in working with others. There are many of us who have been preaching tolerance and working together for 15 years or more. I think it takes some time with birds to gain an understanding of them and to see that there are many ways to keep birds.It makes sense that the time is now. Today, the people who were in that inital explosion of rescues have now had birds for 10 – 15 years.
There has been a lot of damage done in the last 15 years. It will take a lot of work to bring people back to the middle and focused on the future. I have never refused to have a dialogue with people who don’t agree with me. I am more than happy to discuss these issues anytime.
There is an organization out there that has been there for many years. The AFA welcomes all people who have an interest in birds and in the future of birds. http://www.AFAbirds.org.
The breeders accuse AFA of being a pet person organization and the pet people accuse it of being a breeder organization. The fact is, it’s an organization for people who love birds and are concerned about their future. Their focus is on education for everyone involved in birds.
Jamie
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October 14, 2011 at 12:12 pm
Indeed Jamie,
A lot of us from both sides will have to put away any preconceptions and evil thoughts about each other. Both sides should put together constructive suggestions on how we can go about this. May I be the first to offer this constructive suggestion. Would it be possible for the AFA to start to gather the highest quality breeders into a group that would then be able to evaluate any prospective members and assist them into the group by raising their standards thereby giving the rest of us the ability to differentiate between the parrot mills and the smaller, high quality breeders?
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October 14, 2011 at 7:15 pm
The mission of AFA is not about telling people what to do. That’s really not something that AFA can, would or should do. The organization is dedicated to education and that includes sharing ideas, but it doesn’t include forcing everyone to do things in the same way.
The only requirement to be a member of AFA is to pay dues and to support the mission statement: http://afabirds.org/about.shtml
I can’t speak for everyone, but most of the people I know feel that we all have much to learn and that by sharing what we know we help each other and the birds.
If we could all learn to put away preconceived notions it would be a huge step forward. One misconception that you mention in your comment that I would like to address:
Small does not necessarily equal high quality and large does not necessarily equal poor standards. As hard as it is to believe and understand, the people who go into birds just for the money don’t stay in birds very long. They are to aviculture as the “I want free birds and I want other people to support them” are to legitimate rescues and sanctuaries. Those people exist but they don’t have to define the rest of us. We don’t have to let the existence of those people keep the rest of us from moving forward and making a difference for the future of birds.
Jamie
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October 15, 2011 at 8:33 am
I am happy to hear that the AFA is beginning to shift a bit. My impression of the AFA was that it did not look too kindly on companion parrot people and that the AFA was for “Aviculturists.” That is, those that were professionals. I attended the Miami proceedings in 2005 and got the distinct impression that hobbyists, or families that had companion birds were second-class citizens. From my understanding, that is changing and the AFA is now for everyone. I think it’s a move in the right direction because as I have stated before, and as Marc has said, we need to work together and set some standards that might make a difference to the field as a whole.
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October 15, 2011 at 9:20 am
Agreed Patricia,
I would go a little further as well. I keep hearing “not all breeders are bad” and I am just wondering why it would not be in the AFA’s purview to let all of those who may be confused as to whom might be a “good one”. They don’t have to name the bad ones, just leave them off the list??? In other words, set the standards and then put whoever meets them on a list. Also, I think the MAP standards are a good start but they should be updated to show the latest advances in our understanding of parrot rearing, etc.
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October 15, 2011 at 2:14 pm
All of us with birds in our homes that we love owe a debt of gratitude to the people who were first fascinated by birds and spent their time, money and energy to learn how to encourage them to breed raise their chicks so that they would be wonderful companions in our living rooms.
Consider also that these breeding successes have reduced the pressure on wild populations. Having birds in the living room has helped to get people to open their pocketbooks and donate time and money to preserve habitats and birds in the wild.
The idea that these people need to prove that they are worthy to have birds to people who never thought of parrots until they were blessed enough to encounter them in person is crazy making to me. I don’t think anyone has to “get on a list” to prove who they are.
If someone cares enough to join AFA and put their time and money into an organization focused on education and the future of aviculture then that makes a statement.
Patricia, I am sorry to hear that you didn’t feel welcomed at the Miami convention. Many old friends meet in person once a year at the AFA convention and new people sometimes feel left out. There are always little factions in any national organization, but I assure you that everyone is welcome and we are trying to let everyone know that.
The convention this year is in San Antonio, I would love to see you there. In the meantime, I’m sure I will see you at Parrot Festival!
Jamie
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October 15, 2011 at 3:00 pm
Jamie,
I’ll be at the AFA convention. I’ve been invited to speak. But we’ll catch up big time at the Festival. We have a lot to talk about. See you there!
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October 15, 2011 at 4:37 pm
Frankly, IMO one of the most serious problems for parrots or other birds living as pets in homes, is that there are basically two major types of pet owners. There are more than two, but this comment only involves two.
There are those who have an interest in birds and an underlying capacity to allow the bird to be a bird and enjoy it, have empathy for it, seek to understand it, and thus a positive relationship develops. This may take time and surely it will take patience. The result is a wonderful relationship.
Then there is another type of owner, short on patience, with a desire to control the bird, who fails to learn to “read” the bird’s behavioral language and messages, one who is inconsistent in providing daily diet and inconsistent in handling, who LOVES the bird, but ends up doing many things which confuse and alienate the bird to the point that a potential relationship either doesn’t occur, or finally breaks down. Eventually this bird is likely to end up being re-homed.
In terms of re-homing, I take back birds from pet owners who can no longer keep them, for whatever reason. Not everyone has a facility set-up to allow for this practice.
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October 15, 2011 at 5:17 pm
Hi Patricia: Normally I don’t bother responding to nonsense spouted by parrot breeders, but Jamie’s statement that rescues are full because they choose to be is so egregious and patently outrageous that I just had to interject myself into this thread. I have been involved with the parrot rescue effort for all of this century. I know many rescues and sanctuaries here on the West Coast. Each and every one of them including my own can NOT build facilities fast enough to meet the supply of discarded and throw-away parrots. Parrot rescues and sanctuaries are full to overflowing because parrot breeders keep breeding parrots, something like TWO MILLION of them each year! This is because breeders and pet store chains have convinced pet owners that everyone needs a hand-fed baby parrot. Once that parrot grows up and becomes hormonal the vicious parrot rehoming cycle begins. The typical companion parrot will experience SEVEN or more homes in its lifetime. Pet owners typically think parrots can be treated like dogs and cats. They don’t realize that cute cuddly little cockatoo baby will outlive them by decades! But breeders refuse to admit that parrots are WILD ANIMALS, and not suitable to be pets like dogs and cats. When people realize the sheer amount of time involved to raise a parrot, it’s like your kids never growing up and leaving home. No wonder the recent Kaytee relinquishment survey identified Lack of Time as the Number One reason people abandon their parrots. So to state that parrot rescues are full because they choose to be is total unmitigated parrot poop! Breeders consider parrots to be commodities. No more. No less. If breeders really cared about parrots, they would stop the commercial breeding and sale of parrots. And don’t give me the crap about commercial breeders contributing to the conservation of parrots. There is absolutely ZERO conservation value in the commercial breeding of companion parrots! The only solution to the companion parrot overpopulation crisis that will ever make a damn difference is to stop the commercial breeding and sales of companion parrrots!
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October 15, 2011 at 7:56 pm
Michael, I can see from your post that are passionate about the issues, and I assure you that I am too. You said that you have been involved in rescue for the last 10 years-ish? I have been re-homing parrots twice that long and yet I see the situation differently than you do. A lot of it is just a matter of perspective.
There are some birds that I have to work with a little more, some that I have to do a little more education with the person taking them home. Some birds are ready to go to new homes right away, but others not so much. There are homes out there for birds, they just need people to match them up and to help the birds stay in them.
IME, if you work at it, you can find happy homes for birds.
You said:”Pet owners typically think parrots can be treated like dogs and cats. They don’t realize that cute cuddly little cockatoo baby will outlive them by decades”
I agree. (see? common ground isn’t that hard to find). A lot of the problems with birds in homes are just what you stated here. However, my experience is that when people are told differently they still are interested in parrots. People are not unwilling to learn. It’s not the bird’s fault that people don’t understand and changing homes can be a positive experience when you have been in the wrong one.
I don’t believe that parrots are more time consuming than cats and dogs. In fact, to me they are much easier than cats and dogs. I have had birds, cats, dogs, fish, reptiles, livestock and kids. The birds are not even in the top 3 as far as demanding and time consuming.
The market in the US for smuggled birds is just not there anymore. The availability of handfed, domestic raised birds is just too great. We will have to agree to disagree on that I guess.
You said: “The only solution to the companion parrot overpopulation crisis that will ever make a damn difference is to stop the commercial breeding and sales of companion parrrots.”
And if we do that, where will our parrots come from in the future? How will we explain that to our great grandchildren?
One more thought, if there is a huge overpopulation of parrots in the US – Why is it that most of the people in the US have still never owned or even met a parrot? Why do I see so many ads from people that want to adopt a parrot – free or inexpensive? Where are those parrots? There are people looking for them.
Jamie
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October 15, 2011 at 8:14 pm
I guess I just don’t work hard enough at it Jamie! I know of scores (if not hundreds) of parrots that we can’t find homes for. And never will. Not surprisingly, Jamie is another parrot breeder that just doesn’t get it. She lives in a parallel universe where facts and reality just don’t apply. I can quote statistic after statistic on parrot smuggling today and she’ll just ignore them. Statistic after statistic on companion parrot overpopulation, and it just doesn’t faze her! Apparently Jamie has missed my whole point. Parrots are wild animals and not suitable to be pets like dogs and cats! I can’t walk into Petsmart and buy a falcon. Falconers require federal licensing as well as a multiyear apprenticeship. Parrot ownership should be no different. Just because parrots exist doesn’t mean anyone should be able to walk into a Petsmart and buy one!
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October 15, 2011 at 5:26 pm
By the way, to state that the commercial breeding of parrots reduces the pressure on wild populations is total patent nonsense! There is absolutely no evidence that domestic commercial breeding contributes in any fashion to the preservation of wild populations. If anything, the reason why wildlife and parrot smuggling continues to be the problem it is, is because of the commercial companion parrot market. Wildlife and parrot smugglers see a market that they can satisfy with wild-caught animals. Sun Conures and Congo African greys are a prime example on two different continents. Both wild populations are on the verge of extinction because of poachers see a market for those parrots. And don’t say that’s just a problem in Europe or Asia. U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service documents up to 20,000 parrots a year being smuggled across the Mexican border!
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October 15, 2011 at 6:38 pm
Michael,
Great points of view. Thanks so much. Let me remind you I am not a breeder. I have never been a breeder. This is a forum where all points of view can state their case at this time in this post. I realize that you are not pointing it at me. I don’t breed, never did and never will. I support rescues. I’m sure you are aware of that. If not, please let me assure you that I do.
I want to hear what people have to say because people need to hear all sides. I’m happy that you posted. It gives you a way to get your message across. This is about information and opinion. I think you’ve done well. My thanks for taking the time to get your message across.
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October 15, 2011 at 8:08 pm
Hi Laurella, Jamie and Michael
I have to agree with you 100% Laurella. You rightly point out that those with the sincere dedication it takes to properly care for a parrot are only one side of the issue and that many, perhaps half (or even more?) of those with parrots are destined to fail, eventually… This is one of the very issues that a thorough educational message will address and thus save many parrots from ending up in one, perhaps two, three or more of those homes.
As for Michael’s email… You make my argument that the AFA (or somebody in the breeding community) needs to address the issue of defining who are the ones doing the damage in the overbreeding, mass production ethic and who are the ones who are conscientious, empathetic? The ones who care about what they are doing and where their babies end up. I would venture a guess and say that most of those in the latter category would be ready to take back and rehome any parrots that find themselves in failing homes while those in the former would be unable to address the failure of their “product” if only on the grounds that it would be business suicide… The AFA should take sides and denounce the production factories if only to support those who are wildly recognized by their piers as the “good” ones! If they don’t, be ready for only those who are causing all the problems to be the ones who survive.
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October 15, 2011 at 8:21 pm
Well, Michael may be passionate, but he is also exaggerating numbers of birds being smuggled across the Mexican border by a WHOPPING amount.
A couple days ago I contacted USFWS after I read the extreme numbers quoted by the article on prweb from Best Friends. The USFWS reply was that the numbers coming across the border from Mexico are very low….mostly families bringing along their pet birds and an occasional individual with a half dozen conures. The data is available…and it is NOT 20,000 parrots a year. I think the largest recent number was around 5 or 6 hundred in the mid nineties. And the numbers have been falling ever since. Most commonly smuggled birds now are Asian song birds.
So, Michael, better update your files on USFWS data, otherwise it makes every number you quote look suspect.
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October 15, 2011 at 8:41 pm
Michael, I never said that you don’t work at re-homing. In fact, I never made a personal comment or derogatory remark aimed at you. You, on the other hand, have branded me as a breeder who doesn’t care and refuses to listen to reality or facts.
The reality is that my primary focus in birds is with behavior and re-homing. I don’t ignore facts and statistics, but I can disagree with estimated numbers and the erroneous statistics that they create.
I have been doing this longer than you have, I have probably re-homed many more birds than you have. Our experiences may not be that different, but our perspective is.
Birds are not domesticated – yet. I happen to think they can be, they should be and I hope they can hang around long enough for that to happen.
Tell me about the birds that can’t find homes. Maybe I can make some suggestions.
Jamie
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October 27, 2011 at 12:15 am
I don’t think parrots will ever be domesticated. There are several criteria that need to be satisfied for domestication, and they are not met by parrots. Add to that, outside of canines (which have a unique type of genetic component) humans have not domesticated a single species for thousands of years.
I have a 40+ year-old African grey named Max who’s been with me for about three years now. She’s in excellent health, but her emotional baggage is not as healthy. Max can be extremely nasty, bites hard, and does not like to be handled. I’ve been working with her, but as time goes on, she ages and becomes less and less adoptable. I imagine that these are the types of parrots that stay in rescues and foster care for years and years. I’ve come to accept that she will probably be with me always. That’s fine, but I’d like everyone to know that there are some very un-adoptable parrots out there, and many of us are at capacity.
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October 29, 2011 at 3:40 pm
The large parrots woud be hard to domesticate due to their long life spans and generation times but there are species that people have domesticated in the past 2000 years. These include the canary, rabbit, Japanese quail, rat, hamster, and mouse. Cockatiels, zebra finches and budgies are arguably in that group as well.
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October 16, 2011 at 5:53 am
Good morning Jamie,
I have to back up Michael’s observation that there are far more parrots needing rehoming and in some cases outright rescuing than all of those addressing this issue can possibly help. In any given week we receive between 10 and 20 calls for surrender. Simply denying the observations and experience of those who have specialized in the sanctuary/adoption arena is ignoring the writing on the wall. Euthanasia is occurring now. A few years ago the breeding community said it would never happen. How much worse will it get before we put our collective experiences to good use to make some constructive changes that will make all the difference for the parrots we all love?
Sure, I agree with you that many numbers quoted in the video and in Michael’s reply are debatable but should we be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I know that from where we stand it looks like a torrent of parrots needing help and we often feel like we are drowning. Another observation that everyone should take seriously is that the educational messages that adequately address the lifetime responsibility and complexities involved in taking a parrot into your home as a companion have had the effect of stopping many people from following their impulsive desire to get a parrot and we are seeing fewer and fewer adoption applications each year.
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October 16, 2011 at 6:04 am
PS… I might add that the 10 to 20 calls we get each and every week are from our immediate area only. Any calls we get from other areas of the country are referred to rescues in their area.
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October 16, 2011 at 9:28 am
Let me again say that my primary focus is rehoming and parrot behavior so I get my share of calls. When I talk to someone, my goal is matching them with the right bird and educating them about bird ownership. I don’t approach potential bird owners with the idea of finding something that makes them less than perfect as a bird owner. I am not looking for a way to eliminate them.
When the bird goes home, they have 30 days to bring the bird back to me and receive full credit toward another bird. That’s how I convince people to give the adult birds a chance. It’s like a safety net for them. From my perspective, the safety net is there for the bird. I don’t want my birds to be in homes where they are not welcome.
I refuse to sell a bird to someone that wants it because they feel sorry for it. Pity isn’t a good foundation for a relationship. I don’t tell people what they want to hear, I am very honest about birds and very realistic about living with them.
It’s amazing how adaptable people and parrots are when the people know in advance the problems that are likely to come up and have an idea of what to do when it happens. They also have someone to call when there is a problem.
There are homes out there for those birds, they may not be what you consider to be the “perfect” home. There is a good chance that they are homes that the birds would see as perfect for them.
When you think of breeders, think of them as people who are passionate about birds and want to share them with the world. I would encourage breeders to think of rescues and sanctuaries as people who are passionate about birds and want them each to have great homes. Then, with a focus on the future, we can be less judgmental and work together for the birds.
Jamie
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October 16, 2011 at 6:34 am
Good Morning Marc, Jamie, Laurella and Michael,
You have all referred to statistics referring to birds being smuggled, being bred , as well as the total number of birds that go homeless every year. Is there are a solid source for these statistics?
Best Friends stated that they got their numbers from the Government. I think they said it was from a census. I also am aware of some statistics gathered by Kaytee. Are these the numbers you are referring to? And just how accurate are these numbers? I recall a comment on someone’s wall regarding the Kaytee numbers and it was stated that Kaytee “buried the numbers” because the results were not what they expected. Yet, I found them online.
Do any of you know anything about the Kaytee statistics and their accuracy?
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October 16, 2011 at 7:32 am
Well, regarding the Best Friends numbers, they referred me to their source document. Every published reference in that source is older than 1992. That means every number in the source is outdated by at least 20 years.
I only talk to lead people at USFWS and they discounted every number as being inaccurate in today’s world. The entire document appears to be a position paper in support of ending importation. As such, it would have been used prior to 1992, when the WBCA was signed into law.
Now, why anyone would choose to use totally outdated source data is a mystery to me…because it throws the whole article into question when one uses old or fabricated data as the basis for an argument on an issue existing in present time.
In regards to the Kaytee data, I see nothing wrong with it except it may not include enough info for total accuracy.
Now, USFWS has accurate records. However, if one is reading import data, one needs to understand the codes and that means not all imports are live birds, but may be body parts, skins, museum specimens, feather samples for DNA, etc. but those items are all listed by the species. So you have to make sure the code is for a live bird, not a feather or a skin! Example: A Spix macaw feather was imported to perform DNA sexing for the live bird (which was in Brazil). Someone wrote that a live Spix was imported. This is the kind of error that can be made by someone who is not taking care to be accurate in interpreting data.
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October 16, 2011 at 4:18 pm
Yeah Laurella, Whatever! This is from a 2007 USFWS press release (http://www.fws.gov/news/NewsReleases/showNews.cfm?newsId=8ED7D2C7-0950-F2DB-9DB30E5A956367E5)
One individual from Perris, Calif., is estimated to have illegally transported between 6,000 and 10,000 exotic birds valued at more than $1.5 million before he was arrested and charged under federal customs and wildlife protection laws.
Arguing with parrot breeders is pointless. Just Google Parrot Smuggling from Mexico and you can find contemporary statistics. As much as parrot breeders would like to make it so, this is not an issue that died in the last century. And read Mira Tweti’s book Of Parrots and People. She actually worked with enforcement agents in documenting her book. She didn’t just talk with some flack over the phone!
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October 16, 2011 at 5:40 pm
Eh, I have mixed feelings towards Tweti’s book. It was honestly replete with factual errors. One big one off the top of my head: apparently, grain farmers in Australia shoot thousands of Moluccan Cockatoos each year,
It also said there was a study that showed, “one third of the time, birds fly for fun.” I’d really like to see that study. Actually, there are several reasons why that claim is likely completely bogus. She also got the name of the mytoos.com founder wrong.
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October 16, 2011 at 6:09 pm
Wow, so… we all know that she meant Rose Breasted and it was probably her editor that screwed that one up! As for birds flying for fun, you are right because they probably fly for fun 100% of the time! I know I would love it 100% of the time. Jerry didn’t care about that typo either! I am glad to know that the other 99.99% of the book is accurate according to you!
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October 16, 2011 at 7:59 pm
My issue with Tweti’s book is the idea that birds are just not suitable for the living room and that is not the reality that I see. It seems that she blames the birds for not being suitable as ;pets instead of realizing that with some education and understanding many people are very happy with them.
I think her message is unfair to the birds.
Jamie
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October 16, 2011 at 10:27 pm
Actually, no, there were other mistakes. I actually do think the book is worth a read for parrot people for Tweti’s travel stories, but there’s no way I would consider citing it as a source of accurate facts. First, how do you know that the Moluccan Cockatoo mistake was the editor’s? There’s a big difference between a Rose-breasted Cockatoo and a Moluccan Cockatoo.
How do you think biologists would even study how often birds fly for fun, as opposed to flying in order to forage, find a nesting site, migrate, flee danger or find a mate? For one thing, “birds” covers about 9000 species, which ranges from flightless ones to ones that spend almost all of their lives in the air. Actual studies that examine the foraging behaviors of various bird species typically find that birds are generally very economic in their foraging habits. They really don’t tend to waste energy flying for no reason. Many raptors actually spend plenty of time just perching and will only fly if hungry or during migration.
Some wild birds actually do play (Keas, crows and ravens immediately come to mind) it’s but nowhere near 30% of the time. I think pet birds will fly for fun, but since their food is usually supplied by people, they can spend more time in play.
Mixing up two names isn’t just a typo, either; it’s a mistake. There were numerous others but I don’t feel like going through my copy again. Like I said, I didn’t totally dislike the book, although it was biased and had mistakes.
I noticed that Tweti also stated that keeping single birds is cruel, yet she keeps a single bird. Now, I personally suspect she takes excellent care of her bird, but why accuse other people of cruelty for doing the same thing she does? This is the one big problem I have with some of the anti-bird keeping people. They keep birds, yet put down other people who do. I’m seeing that in this discussion too: bird keepers saying birds are unsuitable as pets.
Now, parrots are difficult animals to keep happy in captivity, and I personally am very honest with people about the amount of care they require. There are honestly many species I wish were not sold as pets. However, I keep birds and I adore them, and I’m certainly not the only person in the world who adores her companion birds. Maybe I’m weird, but I also just haven’t run into any huge problems with mine I couldn’t resolve. I also meet lots of people through parrot club meetings like me who want to learn and who love their birds too. I think if rescues (generally – not referring to anyone here) tell everyone that parrots can never be okay as companions, then of course they won’t adopt them out. I do realize it’s very difficult to find truly good homes for some birds, but there has to be a happy medium between adopting them to anyone and driving away anyone interested in one.
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October 17, 2011 at 7:49 am
Jamie, respectfully, Mira is much too smart to even appear to be blaming the bird for the many problems captivity causes in pet parrots. This would be like blaming the victim of a crime for the crime, the Gulf of Mexico for the BP oil spill.
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October 17, 2011 at 10:32 am
Regarding Mira Tweti, I agree. I don’t think it was her intention to leave the impression that it’s the bird’s fault that they don’t do well in captivity and that can’t be changed. I do think, that if you read with an unbiased mind, that’s the message that comes across.
Jamie
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October 27, 2011 at 2:58 pm
Why does “fun” even have to be a reason? The fact is, parrots fly, just as people walk. I’m a lazy-ass and hate walking, but it’s something that’s good for me. Flying is part of what they do, and I know most people, though they prefer not to walk, would choose it anytime over a life in a wheelchair or scooter.
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October 16, 2011 at 7:43 pm
While I certainly appreciate everyone’s passion and heartfelt comments, it would be best to keep this wonderful discussion on a level-headed and even- keeled level.
I think what we have accomplished doesn’t look like much, but people are talking. Communicating. Exchanging thoughts. This is a big step. We’re doing great here. People have resources I’ve never seen before.
I really appreciate everyone’s comments. And if we continue, we just might make some inroads to this issue.
I’m just pleased that we’re exchanging ideas and sources. There is a puzzle here and you are putting together the pieces for me.
Thank you for helping me understand both sides.
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October 17, 2011 at 7:43 am
Dear Jamie, I appreciate your point of view. I do not see any problem with anyone who debates a point from the bird’s point of view and neither do I have a problem with anyone debating, as you do, from the human’s point of view. This is healthy and it ultimately leaves the decision of every reader to make up their own mind. As for the debate over whether or not any bird should be kept in captivity, clipped, unclipped, single or in pairs, we all realize that we all have to do the best we can. Parrots will be here for many more years than either you or I will be and no matter what any of us believe philosophically we all have to deal with that reality. In a perfect world we all might wish for something different! You know, I think if someone is ready willing and able to do a good job giving a parrot in need a good home I would like to hear from them.
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October 17, 2011 at 10:37 am
You said: “Parrots will be here for many more years than either you or I will be and no matter what any of us believe philosophically we all have to deal with that reality.”
I hope you are right. I just worry about what will happen in the future if people are successful at stopping people from breeding. We already have an aging population in aviculture. Young people are not stepping up to be involved in aviculture (they are hearing and believing the anti-breeding message). I see a future of less birds available and skyrocketing prices and eventually extinction. It makes my heart very sad.
Jamie
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October 17, 2011 at 12:00 pm
Good afternoon Jamie,
I think it is a bit misleading to suggest that if people do not breed parrots that they will go extinct. Perhaps in our homes but the only way to stop them from going extinct is to protect the ecosystems where parrots live. Many species of parrots are doing very well and some are adapting very well to life in close proximity to humans. Blue and Gold macaws are now nesting within the city limits of Sao Paulo in Brazil. Quakers seem to be doing very well and I am sure there are many more examples. In Georgetown Guyana I have seen four species from my hotel window and there are many more species within the city limits.
On another point, in my personal view, the people who may be trying to end all animal captivity by humans are the ones who are likely to be disappointed as I think there are far too many of us who would never consider a life without our dogs, cats, chickens and goats. Granted, these are all domesticated animals but therein lies my suggestion that some serious changes need to be addressed in the parrot breeding community such as the domestication of parrots, breeding for positive traits and some definition of who is doing this in a respectful and honorable fashion. As long as the AFA defends the rights of the parrot mills they will have diminished credibility with people like me and millions of other people who want to see an end to the suffering in any animal mill for the pet trade. As long as these arguments are dismissed out of hand I will always have a problem and I am more than willing to let the public hear the facts and decide for themselves without the scaremongering that has gone on for so long by the pet trade. If you are a good human being, a conscientious and caring human being who is involved in the pet trade you should set yourselves apart from the charlatans who are only in it for the buck and who don’t care who (animal or human) they hurt in the process.
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October 17, 2011 at 12:53 pm
I am not aware of AFA defending the rights of parrot mills, unless you have a different definition of the word than my understanding. AFA does believe in bird ownership, we do support captive populations through education. AFA also supports conservation efforts through education and fundraising.
I am also willing to let people to hear the facts and decide for themselves, I would love that. I am not in favor of presenting estimates that have been exaggerated to prove a point as facts and that is what many people do.
Before you dismiss AFA, go to the website, read the mission statement, read the history, look at the list of commercial members, read some of the things AFA has done over the years. I believe that you are making your judgments based on misinformation that you have been given about the organization.
Many of the members of AFA have been trying to improve the lives of parrots long before you or I came on the scene and we have both been around for a while.
Breeding for positive traits is something for the future. Right now, we are still trying to learn about parrots and breeding them. You realize that it’s just been about 20 years since you could easily tell the sex of parrots – and it still requires either pulling feathers or getting blood and sending off to a lab for results. The very traits that are not good in the living rooms, are the ones that are good for breeding. An overprotective parrot isn’t a lot of fun as a pet, but it’s a great trait to have to attract a mate.
Someday, we will be working with parrots that have been in captivity for several generations and we can start to breed for specific traits. When we do that, we will be forever changing the parrot in our home from the parrot in the rainforest.
Jamie
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October 27, 2011 at 3:09 pm
First, please give an example of exaggerated estimates. I’d like to know what you mean.
Second, your statement about breeding for specific traits makes no sense. If a parrot is not a good pet because it has traits as a good breeder, then the traits it will pass to its offspring are the undesirable traits for the pet trade. But really, let’s not deny where many unfit pet parrots end up. The screamers, biters, pickers, that are kicked to the curb by their owners can always find a place at a breeder’s facility. The one’s most unfit for captivity are the ones we have been breeding for the last 20 years.
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October 27, 2011 at 4:52 pm
Research statistics for parrot ownership in the US. The numbers vary widely and generally cite the same sources. There is no actual census of parrots or other birds in the US, therefore all of the statistics related to population are estimated.
If you had experience as a breeder my statement about traits may have made more sense to you. Birds who happily step up for people and prefer to hang out on you than with another bird is not a very suitable breeder. There is a good chance that bird would never form a bond with another bird
Birds that become very territorial about their cages and who immediately prefer the company of other birds (especially opposite sex same species) are generally going to be excellent breeders.
The bird that prefers to hang with you and not other birds would probably not be happy in a breeding situation. The bird that is territorial and prefers other birds can be taught to let you handle him, but he is not likely to ever be really happy with that.
There is much more to that discussion, but the babies of that bird that prefers other birds will still have a great chance of being great pets.
Birds have loud calls, they are not natural problem screamers, people teach birds to scream and it’s something that can be addressed. Birds are territorial naturally, not aggressive. People inadvertantly teach their birds to bite. These things are not problems with the birds, they are problems with the owners. People have unrealistic expectations and a lack of understanding about bird behavior.
In defense of those who have sold the bird, they probably love that species. I am crazy about goffin cockatoos. I sold some that I ended up getting back because the people were unhappy. It took some time to figure out that the problem was that I love goffin’s cockatoos. To me, they have no issues, they are wonderful birds. Who wouldn’t want one? Once I realized the problem, I made sure that at least 1 other person was involved in selling goffin’s.
I know it’s hard to believe for some of you, but, the breeder who breeds primarily eclectus does it because they love them. Same with greys, same with macaws, and conures. Why would you want to have a bunch of birds that you don’t like when you could as easily have birds that you do like? Then, when they are selling those birds, they have a tendency to emphasize the good points. They are not being deceptive, they are simply expressing their feelings and how they see the birds.
Jamie
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October 27, 2011 at 6:10 pm
I asked for an example of “exaggerated” estimates, of which you claim. What you offered was to just tell me that there is no real way of knowing (another assertion needing some kind of evidence), and “that all of the statistics related to population are estimated.” What that tells me is that there would be no way for someone to know if the data were exaggerated or not.
And I can see why some people are getting upset…..
“If you had experience as a breeder my statement about traits may have made more sense to you.” Perhaps that’s true, but it doesn’t make your statement any more correct. It’s not the non-breeder in me that doesn’t see your point, it’s the educated person that I happen to be that knows if you breed an animal who doesn’t make a good pet, it will pass those traits onto its offspring.
And honestly, I’m not going to be laying most of the blame on the general public anymore. If they have unmet expectations, that’s all of OUR faults. It’s the fault of the AFAs, the KayTees, the Bird Talks, the Petcos, and those of us who know better. All those poor birds that were made into screamers and pickers went into those homes because of US. With all the problem birds, how can any aviculturist, breeder, rescuer, scientist say in good conscience that all the problems are because of the pet owners?
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October 27, 2011 at 6:42 pm
Sharon, I have no idea why you are being so confrontational with me. I don’t know you, but reading your blog it looks like we might accidentally agree on some things.
Ask the people who made the video that started this where they get their statistics. If you are comfortable with them that’s fine. My comment was that I didn’t have to believe statistics that came from estimated numbers and I stand by that. You are free to believe whatever you choose.
Parrots in our homes are still the same as the birds in the wild, they have no real genetic traits to pass on that have been modified in any way. Most of the things that parrots do are based on their natural, hardwired behaviors and the way they interact with the environment. That’s all pretty basic scientific information. My comments are that some birds are happier as pets and others are happier as breeders and they should each be allowed to live the lives that make them happier.
You completely missed my point about people selling parrots. I keep hearing (from others, not from you) that the breeders selling the birds don’t represent them properly. They mislead people. My point was that a lot of things, like screaming, are subjective. What bothers you may not bother me. If I raise a particular species it’s probably because I love them and their habits don’t bother me. I wasn’t placing blame at anyone’s door. I don’t think you have to find a way to place blame in order to solve a problem. In fact, I think way too much time and energy goes into finger-pointing and placing blame.
I know I didn’t say that all the problems were with the pet owners, I like pet owners and I spend a lot of time helping them. However, birds aren’t naturally biters and screamers. That happens because of the way they interact with the environment. That’s not placing blame, I am into education. Why would I blame someone if they did something that didn’t work because they didn’t know?
Let’s find out where we are, what the problems are and then let’s move forward.
Jamie
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October 17, 2011 at 7:32 pm
To Michael, I went to the USFWS site and what I read said that over a period of NINE years 790 amazons and conures were confiscated by agents! That is not even 100 a year. As far as selling at swaps and bird mart parking lots, that was where sales used to occur but such sales are not occurring at the present time. Bird breeders in So Calif do pay attention to those activities as they pose a disease threat to our parrots in the US.
Now as far as the agent saying that one smuggler was ESTIMATED to have smuggled many thousands of parrots prior to being caught, you note he didn’t mention the time period involved…and it could have been 30 years for all we know. Now, an estimate means very little…it is not a fact.
So, I think I am going to go for the comments of the USFWS leadership when they say the smuggling problem is less than a hundred a year coming across the border.
Why am I writing this? Because there are too many individuals who are not going to sources to get statistics, but simply repeating stuff without checking.
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October 27, 2011 at 3:38 pm
Laurella, you can’t imagine all the flea markets and marts that sell birds in places like where I live in South Florida. It’s still a blight, and the AFA should address this and other issues. To just let it go is in a way condoning it. It’s saying that we’d rather let people treat parrots unethically than try to put any regulations on people.
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October 17, 2011 at 7:44 pm
Re birds flying for fun. Flying is work. Flying uses up nutrients which have to be replaced. I think to say that birds fly for fun is failing to understand that birds KNOW they need to exercise their wings. At the end of the day, I will see some individual birds make a point of flying back and forth in the long flight in a very determined fashion….as if they are putting in their exercise for the day.
With young birds, learning to fly, after they have got down the basics, they do appear to make some flights “for fun” because they let out little screams of pleasure as they fly and land. Adults do not do this though.
In the wild adult birds often have to fly miles to locate the fruiting trees they need for food for their mates and chicks. This is strenuous work. They also have to have sufficient energy to be able to dodge hawks. This is work, not fun. It is the way they live. So, I don’t think they are going to be taking off and flying around using up important energy just for fun. Their flying is serious.
I do find that a significant number of individuals, (most especially pet owners and those with limited experience with a wide variety of species or a wide variety of captive situations), are the people who have ideas about birds that may not be accurate in terms of normal wild avian biology and behavior. This is understandable if they haven’t had the opportunity to do some indepth observation along with indepth input from reading or experience.
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October 27, 2011 at 3:44 pm
Sooooo, people with only breeding experience have a better understanding of parrots? I think it’s unfair to peg any of the people on this thread as not having the experience to comment on parrot life in captivity and in the wild. Many who are involved in rescue are former breeders, or people who have worked in the industry. That’s a lot of experience, IMHO.
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October 17, 2011 at 8:18 pm
I am starting to have serious doubts that there is any compromise possible from those in the pet trade. Hey, it was worth a shot!
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October 17, 2011 at 10:42 pm
Thanks Laurella for reminding me why arguing with parrot breeders is a waste of time! Regarding parrot smuggling, if you wish to keep your head buried in the sand (or elsewhere) just feel free. For myself, I’ll take Mira Tweti’s research with actual field enforcement agents over your talking on the phone with some office flack any day of the week. Bye Bye!
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October 17, 2011 at 11:25 pm
I suspect that a lot of people think that any parrot caught in the wild is automatically smuggled into the US. Actually, a lot of birds taken from forests in Central and South America are kept within their countries of origin. Parrot keeping is quite a common practice in much of the Neotropics (and in much of Asia too). It’s not hard to find markets in Asia and the Americas where wild-caught birds of all types are sold to be pets. I know someone who lived with an Indigenous family in Ecuador and they kept Brotogeris parrots as pets. Often, they were babies found in cavities in cut-down trees and the women would raise the babies on bananas and other mushed food. Elsewhere in Ecuador, people would buy wild-caught birds at markets.
That kind of shows to me it’s not necessarily hobby breeders in the US and Canada who are causing the trade in wild birds. It really isn’t just North Americans who keep pet birds – lots of people do. I just can’t really draw a line between villagers in, say, Ecuador keeping a few parrots as pets and a hobby breeder in the US who breeds captive parrots to sell within the US.
I honestly disagree with people taking wild birds to be used as pets, since it does cause incredible stress to the birds and it can lead to a severe decline in wild bird populations. But I don’t see how people breeding birds in America are at fault for the wild bird trade within other foreign countries. If all breeders in America and Canada stopped breeding birds, it will not stop the wild bird trade within countries that have wild populations of parrots. It’s illegal generally to import wild birds into the US (and I’m very glad for that), and smugglers who are caught importing birds illegally are punished.
I know there are other ethical issues related to breeding parrots (overpopulation issues, ignorant parrot keepers), but the link between bird breeders in the US and the internal trade in parrots in Asia, Africa and the Neotropics seems a bit questionable to me.
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October 22, 2011 at 10:04 am
To Michael and all, Mira Tweti may have an interest in birds and a love for birds, but she is far from having a background of experience or research that would cause any knowledgeable bird person to take her work as profound or of serious consequence. I was interested to see that she started her book by using the work of many recognized experts and authorities. This is not a surprise, as it lays the groundwork for the reader to accept her work as being of the same quality. (A side note. Tweti did about a 3 hour interview with one President of the AFA. From that three hours, she took ONE SENTENCE and used it in an article to diss the avicultural community and their work! That tells me all I need to know about her agenda….animal rights is written all over it.)
One pet bird does not make someone a knowledgeable bird person.
While there were several things in her book that made no sense to those of us who have some kind of background with birds over a lifetime, there is one passage that stuck in my mind as totally fabricated, either by the author or by someone she interviewed. That was the passage that said a Mexican bird owner had blinded their bird so it would be more tractable, etc.
Now, people living in Mexico have been familiar with wild captured parrots for centuries. They know that you can tame down a wild caught amazon over time. Often the birds they acquire are nestlings which they hand raise. There would never be a reason to blind a parrot. These people love their birds. Blinding the parrot would be cruel and stupid. The blind bird would not be able to feed itself well and maneuver around the cage well. Therefore, that is very unlikely to ever be done. So, in reporting this event, it seems to me that Tweti was either fooled by someone or went into fantasyland.
As far as reporting the statements of a local wild life agent about numbers of birds smuggled, these local guys do not have to account for their remarks. However, the Division Chiefs in the USFWS do have to be on top of the facts and have to report correctly to inquiries. Therefore, I think I am going to take the word of a lead person in USFWS over the word of a local agent, especially an agent in the Enforcement Division.
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October 27, 2011 at 4:10 pm
And here is a perfect example of how being a breeder does not give you a Liberal Arts degree in parrots….. blind parrots adjust and do just fine. They feed themselves, they play with toys, and they even learn to manipulate you by not stepping down when you want to put them back in the cage. Every try to “hook” a blind parrot onto the side bars of a cage? Okay, it was fool me once, but she sure took me by surprise.
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October 22, 2011 at 6:27 pm
The best thing about Mira’s book is that it was written by a journalist, not aligned with the breeding community nor those who are against keeping parrots in captivity. She infuriated me many times by not taking sides and staying impartial. If anyone takes her work as a partisan piece of work it is only because, just as is the case with the general public these days as they too learn about the injustices in the pet trade, that keeping flighted animals in cages is morally repugnant. Herein lies the biggest problem those in the pet trade face, they are being led by visionless people who are so rooted in the past that they cannot address the changes needed by their “trade” to keep it alive in the future…..
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October 22, 2011 at 6:33 pm
PS… the story about the Mexican street vendor selling parrots that he blinded. I have a close personal friend who also told me the same story. In fact, the vendor offered to blind the parrot for my friend when he showed an interest in the bird. Hot needles were the blinding instrument of choice.
Anyone who thinks that a wild amazon can be tamed down (over time?) has not met a few of the male blue fronts here!
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October 26, 2011 at 3:26 pm
I have tamed wild caught Blue Fronts with no problem. All it takes is patience.
Amazons have a mind of their own in any case…but that is fine.
Still I have a problem believing any sensible person would blind a bird. That means the bird cannot find its food or water. Just because x, y or z says something so outrageous, I would want to know it in person myself. AND if some street vendor told me that, I would be taking some kind of action to see that local officials did something about it. People in Mexico do love their birds.
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October 27, 2011 at 4:17 pm
Laurella, here you are speaking about other people not having first-hand experience, yet you obviously have never had first-hand experience with blind parrots.
And I remember once when I visited Tijuana (pre-my parrot life), some guy wanted to sell me an Amazon. He said he would give it a shot of tequila so I could sneak it across the border. I don’t doubt what anyone would do to sell their wares. Do you think some low-life smuggler would care if a bird would die of starvation once across the border because he blinded it??
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October 26, 2011 at 7:37 pm
You know, Jamie, on several messages you practically insisted that you were more knowledgeable than Michael just because you were doing it longer. Well, Jamie, I’ve been “doing it” twice as long as you. That’s right; twice as long as you. Therefore, it stands to reason that my comments will supercede anything that you might offer.
It’s a shame, Laurella, that you believe any statistics the U.S. government is publishing. If they posted the actual figures, it would make them look like failures … an agency that hasn’t been able to stop the smuggling of parrots and other animals and drugs.
Commercial breeding contributes NOTHING to conservation. In fact, it is probably the breeder who is adding to the problem of smuggling, since new blood is always needed as breeding pairs age and no longer are financially worth keeping.
One of the so-called most respected breeders in California pumps out over 1,000 birds a year for the commercial market. Would AFA dare label him as a “bad breeder” especially if he served on their board? May I remind AFA that they also allowed Lisa McManus to remain on their board? So AFA is hardly an organization I would trust as far as I could throw. They are a breeder organization, as proven by their “classes” written by another commercial breeder, Rick Jordan.
I’m sorry I got back on this page, but I wanted to read another thread, which was a lot more educational than this one. I told you Marc — you’re wasting your time trying to build a bridge with breeders.
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October 26, 2011 at 9:32 pm
You have completely mischaracterized my posts. I referred to my experience twice and that was only to demonstrate that I understand that birds need to be rehomed and that I had a successful approach to that. I never said I was more knowledgeable than anyone. As far as you being involved in birds twice as long as I have been? You are either misinformed or you are very old.
Our opinions are our own, but facts should be the same for everyone. It appears that you have some misinformation about breeders in the US. The AFA has supported conservation for years. The AFA is very clear on it’s stance regarding smuggling. AFA is not a certifying organization, it is a federation of individuals, businesses and organization with a focus on birds (not just parrots). Their mission is education. The first FOA course was cowritten by Barbara Heidenreich. The behavior portion of that course, written by Barbara, is very good. Robin Shewokis wrote a portion of FOA II. The conventions always have good behavior information.
So, I assume from your post that you have no interest in bridge building. I hate to hear that.
Jamie Whittaker
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October 27, 2011 at 2:31 pm
Define “old”, Jamie. Yes, I have been involved in birds twice as long as you.
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October 27, 2011 at 4:25 pm
I have lived with birds all my life, and started breeding birds in 1981. If you have been involved twice as long as I have then that would be 60 years of involvement with birds. I had birds prior to that, as pets and I volunteered with a local store prior to that. I guess it depends on how you defind “involved in birds”. We opened our store in 1988 and we started re-homing at that time. I have only been online since 1996 or 1997 but I had quite a bit of experience in birds before I had a computer.
Jamie
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October 28, 2011 at 10:49 am
This video is a complete contradiction, narrow minded and highly insulting…
1. Trimming wings is not mutilation. They grow back. That is like saying that a human is mutilated by trimming bangs or any hair cut for that matter – doesn’t make sense and should not have been said and shows to be the personal opinion of Brenda who by the way could be considered mutilated because she has a styled haircut. There are plenty of birds that go outside and are flighted; guess what, mine and many others don’t fly away, run away, or hop away. They stay and hang out with their family. Hmmm, go figure.
2. She speaks as if everyone neglects their parrots. I am willing to bet that everyone that has commented on this blog does indeed interact with their birds – yet she states that nobody does. I have been working with the public for years. My original main focus was working with rescue birds and guess what… there is an adoption fee! Guess what else, the adoption fees are sometimes just as much as purchasing a baby bird without bad habits and “issues.” I don’t blame the recuses and/or sanctuaries for charging their adoption fees because they need that money to care for the animals. My point is that Brenda states, “Don’t buy birds, adopt them.” She fails to mention that there are either adoption fees or “donations” that go along with that adoption. Soooo, isn’t that technically “buying a bird?” hmmm, why, yes it is… this is another contradiction to this video clip.
3. The set up that Brenda is working in with those birds is ideal and quite common. Most parrot owners and breeders that I know set up top notch flights for their birds. The people that I affiliate with spend a small fortune on their birds and love doing so. I interact with hundreds of parrot owners and I guess that I am lucky enough to only read about the few and disgusting people that don’t take proper care of their birds. But I certainly will not judge all of society as if they are that type of bad parrot owner. I do a great job with my birds and so do all of my friends and I take grave offense to anyone stating that all people of the general public could not and does not care for their birds properly. Do not include us “good guys” in these comments.
4. This video clip is highly insulting to all of the bird lovers in society that do take proper care of their birds. That is like saying that the human race should not parent human children because there are gangs and thieves in society. There are some humans that are horrible parents and it is truly a shame that they do what they do, but there are for more wonderful human parents out there that out weight the bad. This is ridiculous. Judging the whole avian owning population from the merits of a few hundred rotten people? Seriously, there are millions of parrot owners… the good outweigh the bad significantly. Hopefully this video clip will not get much coverage.
5. By the way, you can NOT force a parrot to breed. If they don’t want to – they won’t. If they do not have a proper set up right down to the exact temperature and humidity – they won’t. That is why there are so few in existence and that is why so many of them are near extinction. So, the credibility of this entire video clip is…. Zilch!
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October 28, 2011 at 11:12 am
Wow! Patricia, lol… you really pulled out some serious energy from a lot people. I have read plenty and usually don’t comment but I am going in on this.
Ouch… Hey bloggers, the human market is kind of the same as you are describing that parrot market as being. You are truly passionate and that is wonderful. But we should not damn the 90% of wonderful humans that take proper care of their parrots because of the 10% scum of the earth, horrible, abusive, thieving, underhanded, shameful people that chose to abuse parrot keeping make an impression on us. In fact, they are getting too much recognition as it is – they love any press good or bad.
There is a smuggling black market for everything and anyone (ALL animals, clothing, furniture, fragrances, HUMAN ORGANS, & HUMANS…), not just parrots so focusing on that that doesn’t really make sense. The kidnap and re- sale rate of human children is far worse than anything else and is the worst tragedy of all. So, let’s stick to what is in our reach to actually control together for the benefits of the birds. I am guessing that none of us hang out with or associate with smugglers that work the black markets any way. We have no choice but to leave that up to the government and the authorities anyway.
Jamie Whittaker brought up some great points as well as some others on here. I am reading, listening, and shaking my head. Everyone on here has the main and most important thing in common. We all LOVE parrots! Helloooooooooo… Stop arguing and get proactive with a common ground unless your only desire is to complain and never truly accomplish anything worthwhile. Ouch… that had to hurt. I pulled Jamie’s name and I will actually pull Marc’s name out of this group [as long as Marc doesn’t go overboard on living in the wild speech] because they both have made a recordable difference in the avian world that benefits birds as well as people. Jamie Whittaker has in fact re-homed numerous birds and follows up with education, support, and proper bird placement for well over twenty years. Marc Foster has created a beautiful sanctuary for birds. Marc, you fell in love with birds and they are lucky that you did. You used your head, got grants, got support, did whatever you needed to do and created an incredible sanctuary! Now that is making a difference that benefits birds. I had read that you make sure that the tamed pet birds get their fill of human interaction, cuddles, and “lovin.” I have heard that the wild untouchable birds get to live their life free but safely contained within your style of a caged (and very safe) world. These are all good things.
Seriously, we all know that parrots tend to outlive humans. Humans tend to buy their “dream bird” when they are retired and able to “spoil” that bird and give it major TLC that the bird becomes accustom to. I am not saying this is bad or good, I am just saying that it is rather common. Those birds tend to desire that same affection from the new owner (after theirs passes on) and that new owner doesn’t understand what their new bird is communicating to them. This is where a Jamie Whittaker comes in handy. There is no need to give up that bird if you are given the proper education, support and direction of what to do and how to do it. Birds are highly intelligent and are always attempting to communicate with us – learning how to “read” that is where a behaviorist comes in very handy. Keep in mind that many people have college degrees in animal behavior – because it is needed. So if colleges recognize – so should the public. That is where we all come in to play – together; spreading the right word. Don’t give up. Reach out and ask for help. Just look at all of the parenting classes that are available for humans, long living intelligent animals are challenging and we absolutely love that about them – so we all need to be educated as to how to understand each other. Reassure people that there is help and support and that if they are feeling overwhelmed – reach out for help. Help is there and it is not expensive either.
Now here is a challenge to the overwhelmed sanctuaries out there. Michael, you especially are hot under the collar and putting your energies in all the wrong places. You say that there is an overabundance of abandoned birds in California? Than take control of the situation. Either contact other states that can handle the birds and re-home them properly or contact someone like Mark Foster and also contact a grant writer and start working on developing a massive open to the public Parrot Park! California would be an ideal place to have a parrot park. There is plenty that can be done and there is no reason for there to be an overflow of sanctuaries. Reaching out and becoming proactive instead typing and complaining will benefit the birds, the public, and yourself. Just think how incredible that could be? I visualize education, interaction, and a better informed public.
For the record, I am a long time member of the American Federation of Aviculture (AFA) and have learned a great deal from the organization. From my understanding (voiced in the mission statement), AFA is for the birds and for the people – all birds and all people that support birds. AFA‘s motto is “working for the future with birds” which means to me, ‘all birds.’ “The mission and purpose of AFA is promote the advancement of aviculture through educational programs that enable better husbandry, management, and living conditions for exotic birds; promote avian research and conservation of exotic birds; keep our members aware of legislative issues that affect aviculture and aviculturists and keep legislators aware of the need for fair and equitable regulations. The goal of AFA is to insure long-term, self-sustaining populations of exotic birds both in captivity and in the wild” (AFA website, 2011).
From all of the “blogging” and passion that I have been reading on this forum, we really do all have the same mission which actually sounds a lot like what AFA is all about. Maybe some of you didn’t know that. You should look into it, you might be pleasantly surprised. Okay, I am all geared up to go visit and support that new Parrot Sanctuary Park that Michael should be starting any day now (smiles). Hey, Michael – are you done yet? I already visualized it and would love to visit and support it. I would like to see a fun show too… maybe of goofy old Amazons singing all different songs at the same time all out of tune of course….LOL! All good stuff – go for it. It would be fantastic! No more griping, let’s all make an impressive difference. We are really all on the same page; the font was just a little hard to read…
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October 29, 2011 at 7:47 am
Good morning Concetta, and all….
First, as much as I hate my last name (so boring, I would prefer Foster) it is not Foster but Johnson. This has been a common mistake as my common name among the breeding community was “Marc Bloody Fingers Foster”. Second, YOU are on the right track Concetta by not just reacting with the same old stance that has characterized the breeding community’s defense of their livelihoods but rather you have taken the first step by anyone I know to address the concerns of those of us who stand in opposition to the suffering in the pet trade by way too many parrots. It really is only when the pet trade starts to address the issues that seem to inflame so many in opposition (as opposed to just labeling everybody who disagrees as Animal Rights Fanatics) that the opposition to the breeding community will diminish rather than, as it is now, growing. I find it difficult to believe that there isn’t anyone in the leadership of the AFA who does not see the role they should be taking to weed out those who have no respect for the creatures they treat so poorly. Somebody has to do this? If not the AFA, who? Things cannot go on as they are now, the opposition will only grow.
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October 29, 2011 at 4:56 pm
From your mouth to God’s ears… But it isn’t up to the American Federation of Aviculture to “police” people; AFA educates and fights “odd” legislation. I am not sure if there is an unbiased group that could actually step in and assist without “bullying” or favoritism becoming a problem. This is something that Animal Control would probably take on properly but they would need to be well versed in avian care and well manned to properly conduct. It could happen in our life time. Let’s be positive and think that the good will prevail! 🙂
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